Pistol Bullseye & Zero Distance Chart

David Mayeur

Regular Member
Following along with the posts I've made in the P&S Facebook Group and on Instagram, Oak City Tactics asked if I could post these here.

The first chart is a reference for zeroing pistols at three different distances: 10 yards, 25 yards, and 50 yards. A 10 yard and 25 yard zero seem to be the most common, but this chart shows why the 25 yard zero is highly regarded as the best zero distance. To understand the chart, assume that POI is a bullseye for each target distance. At 10, 25, and 50 yards, the red ring indicating POI will be covered by the corresponding zero at that distance. Example: A 10 yard zero will be POA/POI at 10 yards, therefore the magenta ring will be covering the bullseye. At ten yards, you will be POA/POI with a ten yard zero, but you will find that at other distances, your hold over and hold under will change drastically. At 25 yards, a 10 yard zero yields a 1 1/2" hold under. A 25 yard zero yields roughly a 1/2" hold over at 10 yards, but will be POA/POI at 25. At 15 and 20 yards, you will still be within the X ring (1.695" diameter). At 50 yards, the hold under is minimal and will not be noticeable to most shooters. Shooting out to 50 yards is going to start opening up groups for the majority of carry guns out there. Something that should also be noted is that those who are using a "ten yard zero" are typically confirming windage at 25 yards.

Pistol Zero Chart.jpg

The second diagram shows what a 100 point (3X) score would translate to at closer distances. This diagram goes hand in hand with the pistol zero chart, because it exemplifies the reason why zeroing only at 10 yards is a poor idea. The group size at 10 yards is abysmal compared to what it would be at 25 yards. Trying to decipher which rounds are where when you blow out the center of the B8 black is difficult to do. That's why we confirm zero at 25 whether you choose a 10 yard or 25 zero elevation. 10 yards is just too close to determine if windage is properly zeroed.

Bullseye Precision Chart.jpg

To prove this, I took my Glock 34 to the range with my training and carry ammo to check and confirm zeroes. The first photo shows the initial zero at ten yards, followed by the same zero (untouched) at 25. I then used that 25 yard target to make adjustments as needed. Ammo used was CCI Blazer Brass 115 gr FMJ.

10 yard initial zero.

Bullseye @ 10.jpg

25 yard target with 10 yard zero. As you can tell in the photo, the group is high and to the left.

Bullseye @ 25.jpg

Rather than blabbering on and showing my poor shooting, I figured we could discuss this at length if needed.
 

Oak City Tactics

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Interesting photo comparison might be initial 10 yard target, initial 25 yard target, adjusted 25 yard target, 10 yard target after adjustment at 25 yards. It would be interesting to see the two 10 yard targets before and after adjustment. Especially if there is no noticeable difference in spite of the 5” shift in adjustment at 25. That would really demonstrate what is being masked by zeroing at such short range.
 

David Mayeur

Regular Member
Interesting photo comparison might be initial 10 yard target, initial 25 yard target, adjusted 25 yard target, 10 yard target after adjustment at 25 yards. It would be interesting to see the two 10 yard targets before and after adjustment. Especially if there is no noticeable difference in spite of the 5” shift in adjustment at 25. That would really demonstrate what is being masked by zeroing at such short range.

I need to go back to the range and bench my 34 with a bag. That would be a good idea to take photos of each stage. Although, I'll admit that I've never gone back to ten and benched to see how tight it would be. I usually shoot "The Test" after zeroing.
 

bcwood64

Newbie
This is some great info here. But thought it was understood by Cowan and Jedi that you should not use a bag to zero your optic. Are you going to use the bag just to try and see what the potential mechanical accuracy is going to be?

Also Caleb said that Jedi was a advocate of the 10 yard zero, I wonder if they can come in here and share their thoughts on it.
 

oda175

Member
Personally, I notice a zero shift in shooting from a bag vs. freestyle at 25yd. I am sure that this is entirely shooter induced, however is consistent- hence I prefer to zero standing freestyle only. With this approach I still maintain >93 average on B8s at 25yd (cold with carry ammo). I still think that doing a true 25yd is the best approach, and that a 10yd or 15yd zero with a 25yd windage zero check is viable as well.

I do like the 10yd zero option for newer shooters, especially those that struggle on 25yd bullseye work. But with the expressed purpose of improving those fundamentals to the point of 25yd consistency.

Factory 19 Gen5 w/ RMR 06. First 10 with carry ammo.
 

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David Mayeur

Regular Member
This is some great info here. But thought it was understood by Cowan and Jedi that you should not use a bag to zero your optic. Are you going to use the bag just to try and see what the potential mechanical accuracy is going to be?

Also Caleb said that Jedi was a advocate of the 10 yard zero, I wonder if they can come in here and share their thoughts on it.

I've never heard either of them saying that benching a pistol was a bad idea.

Jedlinski zeroes at 10 and confirms at 25 yards.
 

David Mayeur

Regular Member
Personally, I notice a zero shift in shooting from a bag vs. freestyle at 25yd. I am sure that this is entirely shooter induced, however is consistent- hence I prefer to zero standing freestyle only. With this approach I still maintain >93 average on B8s at 25yd (cold with carry ammo). I still think that doing a true 25yd is the best approach, and that a 10yd or 15yd zero with a 25yd windage zero check is viable as well.

I do like the 10yd zero option for newer shooters, especially those that struggle on 25yd bullseye work. But with the expressed purpose of improving those fundamentals to the point of 25yd consistency.

Factory 19 Gen5 w/ RMR 06. First 10 with carry ammo.

All of my guns are zeroed from a rest. If you bench the gun and notice a change when shooting freestyle, it's going to be from the shooter 99% of the time. Zeroing from a RANSOM REST is not advised.
 

oda175

Member
Just some more “ballistic” reports on a 25 yard zero. The three targets were shot with range ammo (Magtech 115], and is within a very acceptable zero shift from my carry ammo.
Target 1 is 10x at 25yd on A-Zone Head
Target 2 is 10x at 50yd on B8 (Circled Red)
Target 3 is 10x at 100yd on IPSC (8/10 hits)

*All holds are center , including 100yd.

Things to note- 50yd with 25yd Zero wields ~4” high.
100yd seem to be fairly on point with the calculated drop of 9.1” below POA.
Accepting this is range/practice ammo, but pretty representative of practical accuracy at distance. All groups freestyle standing. Biggest diffrence with RMR pistol when it comes to distance shooting is the consistency of results. I can shoot great groups with iron sighted pistols at these distances- but not nearly with the same ease/speed/consistency.7F9FFB24-4869-415F-931E-28AF7AD87FA0.jpeg5E1876C8-74CB-4301-83FC-CDD83D170E2F.jpegA5C61ED0-3ABC-4D6F-988E-75C45FED2483.jpeg
 

David Mayeur

Regular Member
Just some more “ballistic” reports on a 25 yard zero. The three targets were shot with range ammo (Magtech 115], and is within a very acceptable zero shift from my carry ammo.
Target 1 is 10x at 25yd on A-Zone Head
Target 2 is 10x at 50yd on B8 (Circled Red)
Target 3 is 10x at 100yd on IPSC (8/10 hits)

*All holds are center , including 100yd.

Things to note- 50yd with 25yd Zero wields ~4” high.
100yd seem to be fairly on point with the calculated drop of 9.1” below POA.
Accepting this is range/practice ammo, but pretty representative of practical accuracy at distance. All groups freestyle standing. Biggest diffrence with RMR pistol when it comes to distance shooting is the consistency of results. I can shoot great groups with iron sighted pistols at these distances- but not nearly with the same ease/speed/consistency.

I'm not dismissing your reports, but bear with me. The chart is indicative of intersecting lines. It does not represent the actual POA/POI of every firearm and ammunition type available. The chart does not factor in human error. Any deviation is amplified at distance.

I shot my 34 offhand at 100 yards on a 12x12 plate yesterday. My hold was the bottom of the plate. If I added a 100 yard zero using the method the others were created with, the POA/POI would not be true, because there are many factors that come into play. From my P-09, there is a near 2" elevation shift at 25 yards when using my practice ammo versus carry ammo.

The entire point being that everyone should do as you have done. Test your ammunition and find the shifts and offsets at various distances.
 

oda175

Member
Entirely understand. And was not intended to conflict with your charts. Just pictures to go with charts reflective of actual shots. And to drive home the variation of ammo. I love and live by ballistic predictors- long gun guy by profession- but many people get wrapped around the axle when results differ from the algorithm.

Aside- great post- good discussion! And drives home the “fact” that 25yd seem to be about the best zero distance.
 

David Mayeur

Regular Member
This is the POI shift at 25 yards from my CZ P-09 using SIG Elite 115gr FMJ & Federal HST 124gr +P.

I zero all of my guns with my carry ammo and note the shift with training ammunition.

46042531574_b26fff1848_c.jpg

39802253643_937ac8a3e2_c.jpg
 

David Mayeur

Regular Member
Entirely understand. And was not intended to conflict with your charts. Just pictures to go with charts reflective of actual shots. And to drive home the variation of ammo. I love and live by ballistic predictors- long gun guy by profession- but many people get wrapped around the axle when results differ from the algorithm.

Aside- great post- good discussion! And drives home the “fact” that 25yd seem to be about the best zero distance.

No harm done. I'm happy that you posted results. The chart is just to provide a visual for the people who say "I zero offhand at 10 and it works for me." While zeroing offhand can certainly get the job done, you have to shoot at distance no matter which zero distance you choose. I've found that most people dismiss zeroing a pistol, because they can't shoot well enough at 10 and beyond to begin with.
 
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