OC Spray

Kohr

Newbie
Tonight as my wife was getting ready to go for a run she asked for pepper spray for when she couldn't carry. This brought to light the fact that I know absolutely nothing about OC spray, its merits, or applications.

The big questions that come to my mind as a novice in this area are:
1) Is this a legitimate alternative means of self defense?
2) How effective is it against animals, specifically dogs?
3) Are all brands commercially available created equal? I assume not so what am I looking for, and what am I ensuring I stay away from?
4) Is there any additional training I should seek?
5) What other questions should I be asking?
 

Grizzly

Regular Member
Tonight as my wife was getting ready to go for a run she asked for pepper spray for when she couldn't carry. This brought to light the fact that I know absolutely nothing about OC spray, its merits, or applications.

The big questions that come to my mind as a novice in this area are:
1) Is this a legitimate alternative means of self defense?
2) How effective is it against animals, specifically dogs?
3) Are all brands commercially available created equal? I assume not so what am I looking for, and what am I ensuring I stay away from?
4) Is there any additional training I should seek?
5) What other questions should I be asking?

1). Against humans a perfect application of OC spray can be very very annoying and painful. But I wouldn't trust my life to it. It might be good to use as a distraction then either finish the fight or get away some how.
2). Pretty good
3). Name brands are better and the higher the SHU the better. Fox and sabre make good ones. Others as well maybe but I've sampled both of them and found it unpleasant.
4). At least get inert trainers to practice application of different spray types.
5). What are you trying to prevent? A determined rapist/mugger will be unlikely to stop because of pepper spray. It is easy to function through the pain especially if you've been hit with it a time or two. I know at least some groups of dirt bags practice with it/haze each other with pepper spray for this very reason.
 

weaver1032

Regular Member
Squarely in my lane....

I recently did a pretty exhaustive research project to update my agency's issued OC spray.

There is a very spread of quality in currently available OC spray. I would urge against some of the random shit they sell at Gander Mountain etc. in the cute pink holders. You really don't know what you're getting there.

The best available is Fox Labs OC spray. They are issued to 37 of 50 states' correctional departments, are issued to US Bureau of Prisons, and thousands of LE agencies. They are also a very popular brand in Europe and have had to come up with special formulations to meet strange EU rules. I would strongly recommend for her use getting a stream spray versus a cone or fog. I would also urge getting inert trainers to get familiar with what the spray will do once it's out there. Would also make sense to use the LE type cans with the flip top rather than their tiny jogger sized cans. I find the tiny jogger sized cans to have an odd safety that is difficult to manipulate. The best pocket sized unit I've come across ever was the Defense Technologies Mk6, but their spray formulation has been passed by by much more effective sprays.

I have 2 OC deployments in about 5 months of carrying Fox, in both, the sprayee literally fell to the ground and was out of the fight. I have as much or more faith in my Fox OC than I do in my TASER.

To specifically answer your questions:
1) Yes, but in her case it is a means to effect an escape
2) Depends on the dog, but typically fairly effective
3) See above...far from equal
4) May not be a bad idea to see what training is available. Check applicable laws related to its use/carry. I would suggest having her do a deployment or two of it so she understands what type of cross-contamination she will deal with.
5) Feel free to hit me with a PM if you have any more questions. I have literally dozens if not hundreds of OC deployments and am a DT instructor including OC for my state.
 

voodoo_man

Established
I do not carry OC on duty anymore, its not worth the eventual eye rinse at the hospital and snotty nose.

When I talk to people about OC it either comes down to them not wanting to carry a pistol or to them not being able to. If you are unable to carry a pistol, what kind of situation is that? Can it be avoided?

I would stay away from OC, especially for a female. Maybe default to a blade?
 

back spin

Amateur
I would advocate an actual can of OC (around 2 oz size) in Steele form. Seems like a decent balance of ease of carry and effective range. The small pen/capsule sized OC units usually have thin weak streams.

Between a knife and OC for a female, I would recommend the non-contact weapon. It would seem the effective use of the blade would take much more training and physicality compared to OC spray. OC can be deployed while making distance. The knife, not so much.

That said, no reason why one can't carry both a knife and OC if one is to be without a gun.
 

back spin

Amateur
Also wanted to add:
I don't think self contamination is much of a concern from my experience. I've seen OC spray deployed in stream form a few times while working the jail. In none of those instances were the present deputies affected except slight discomfort in breathing at most, and that was because we had to close in and cuff the inmates.
 

Bronson

Fury
1) Yes.

2) I had an incident of a pitbull escaping it's yard and not having OC Spray on me. Didn't go to guns due to concrete ground, crowded business & residential street, and backstop not being clear. Went to my blade and cut it, but while bleeding out it still had time to attack others, to include getting tazed by an Officer (no incapacitating effect, dog subsequently bit Officer).

During my AAR after, I concluded that I was fucked up for not having multiple options of dealing with problems. Being able to select whichever one was more appropriate to the task would be Value Added. A Less Lethal option is likewise Value Added. This was also a training deficiency, so I took Chuck Haggard's excellent OC course. Chuck is uniquely qualified as he has extensive experience with OC Sprays (live) as well as a wide array of training in that field. Following that course, Chuck hooked me up with a couple live units and then I purchased a bunch of live and training units for sustainment use.

TFolowing that incident I had three more instances of OC use on dogs. Two were overtly aggressive, one was posturing.

All three dogs self selected out of the fight after OC Spray. All products were Sabre Red. First OC strike was a Gel. I transitioned to a stream after that due to Gel being more applicable indoors and harder to hit target areas, especially when moving - though that is a training issue to an extent.

Upon OC strike to vital areas (eyes, nose, and mouth), dogs moved away (typically to the side or back), and attempted to rub their face on the ground and nearby objects in an effort to decontaminate.

The BFG belt pouches are an awesome method for carrying OC in an EDC capacity. The dedicated OC pouch will house the smaller sizes, the baton pouch will hold a larger size though it will be open topped.

3) No. There are a lot of underperformers out there and outdated unscientific means of measuring how hot something is, as well as false marketing. QA/QC and manufacturing are also aspects to look into.

4) An actual OC course would be value Added. I'm a fan of Chuck's program for the reasons previously mentioned. The recommendation for trainer units for sustainment training and a program for that is spot on.

5) I'd ask about effectiveness rates of OC on person and canine (perhaps with another Less Lethal alternative to compare to), differences of OC vs. CS and the combination OC/CS products, decontamination effects and protocols.
 

WayneF

Member
1. It is a tool, you can't expect it to do the work for you. She needs to be prepared to follow up with strikes and the Nike defense after giving him the spray.

2. Spray tends to be much more effective on aggressive dogs than trying to land Taser probes.

3. Sabre and Fox both make good stuff with a solid reputation through use. I would go with one of those brands and find a decent size and top configuration that will work for her. I carry an ASP key chain model with Sabre Red insert as it is a happy balance between effectiveness and something I will actually carry every day.

4. You wouldn't give her a gun or knife without proper training, no reason to do the same with OC. She needs to understand the pros and cons, factor in how to access it, and what to do after she employs it. I was in the same Chuck Haggard class that Bronson mentioned and I can whole heartily recommend it. Trek from MDFI also offers a solid course from what I understand.

5. Sustainment training, in context, is key. Get some inert models and carry out some scenarios. Let her get used to someone aggressively coming towards her, forcing her to access the tool and get it into play. Get off line, hose down the target areas, follow up and beat feet.
 

moonriver

Newbie
OC sprays are pretty good.I carry them around with me whenever I go out.Though it is not completely reliable at all times.It is great to use as a mean of distracting the offender.
 

Teague

Newbie
I sprayed someone at work this year and he was so jacked up by the combination of adrenaline/drugs, that he didn't know he'd been sprayed until the paramedics were asking him if he was allergic to OC.

Dogs are much more compliant.

It can work but if it's for running like you said I'd look more into a holster designed for running.
 

Greg "Sully" Sullivan

Established
Vendor
VIP
OC (Pepper) spray is a good tool. At chemical munitions instructor school we were taught that CN & CS Tear Gas works on humans, but won't work on K9's due to them not having Olfactory Glands (Tear Ducts). From personal experience, OC Pepper spray does work on K9's, cats (Before all you cat lovers get upset, the cat was in the closet when we sprayed the bad guy with a pepper fogger so it also got a dose), bears, and other 4 legged critters very well. CN & CS Tear Gas is an irritant, that will make your eyes tear, sinus's open up and snot run, and CS makes my skin burn and feel like its get millions of needles sticking in it. If you put CN or CS into a place, people that are effected by it will want to get away, their eyes are watery but they can still see enough to find their way out of where they are at if they so desire, that is why in SWAT we put it into structures, and oftentimes it is used for unruly crowds, etc. OC is ground up pepper (a food product that you can spray on your Taco Bell), that when introduced to your eyes, will dry the eyes out due to the heat, and the eyes will involuntarily swell shut to maintain the moisture, and when inhaled into the mouth and nose will cause a burning sensation that makes it feel like you can't breath (but you can, as it doesn't effect breathing), and it also causes a burning sensation on any skin that it gets on.

OC sprays come in 3 basic forms, fogger, stream, and foam. The fogger unit is a miniature fire extinguisher of sorts, where a small 3-oz or 4-0z can can empty itself in just a couple of seconds, dispersing a large cloud of OC particles (kind of like a very fine talcum powder) in the are of what you want to spray, so its kind of hard to miss. The fogger units are nasty to be hit with, as the fine powder gets effects on the eyes quickly making them swell shut, gets into the nose and mouth causing the burning sensation where you think its hard to breath, and the powder stays with the bad guy for a time as when we have taken bad guys to jail the OC powder comes off of them in booking and gets into the air system for hours (Staff & inmates on numerous floors will complain). A negative to the fogger is that it empties the can very quickly, and has a high contamination rate of effecting the person doing the spraying, and anyone else around them, as the fog is very effected by wind and has a long air hang time of about 20-minutes from experience.

Stream units spray like squirt gun in a sense, and most units will generally reach out further in distance than fogger for foam units. A stream unit in the 3-oz or 4-oz size will generally give 30-sec to 1-minute of spray. The stream units are generally wet, as the OC particles are carried in liquid (like water) stream, and the stream will break up into smaller particles the further it reaches out. The stream needs to be sprayed directly into the eyes for best effects, and generally takes about 30-seconds to 1-minute or more for the eyes to involuntarily swell shut, though some people give up instantly. The stream units can still cause contamination to the user and others in the area, but has a lot less contamination as compared to the fogger.

OC Foam units basically spray out a liquid, that foams up like shaving cream in a sense the further it gets from the spray can. From my experience it doesn't go as far as a regular stream unit, and is more effected in a stiff cross wind (couldn't hit a mean dog that had me cornered at 7' in a 30-mph cross wind). Foam units are like the stream units, as a 3-oz to 4-oz unit will give 30-sec to 1-min of spray. The times I have been sprayed with the foam directly in the eyes, it will swell my eyes shut instantly, as compared to the stream that takes about 1-min on me, and fogger was instantly. The foam doesn't give me the burning effects in the nose & mouth, but it will swell my eyes shut for about 30-min.

The nice thing about OC spray is that it does work on both humans and critters like dogs. It is easy to carry, light weight, and small. It is generally viewed low on a use of force options scale. Is someone is sprayed with OC, it will temporarily make their eyes swell shut, skin feel like its burning from the heat, and can give a person the burning effects sensation to the nose and mouth as well, but it really hasn't caused a permanent injury so liability is low as compared to firearms or impact tools.

A lot of our Officers run and bike with a firearm carried in a chest holster, like the ones from SurvivalSheath.com

keltec_chest.jpg




CY6
Greg Sullivan "Sully"
SLR15 Rifles
TheDefensiveEdge.com
(763) 712-0123
 

Greg "Sully" Sullivan

Established
Vendor
VIP
I forgot to add to the above post, and I don't see a way of editing, I have used and been exposed to just about every brand of OC spray that is available for LE use since it first started coming available in the early 90's with Capstun, Reliapon, Guardian, DefTec, Aerko, FoxLabs, CTS, ALS, Zarc, etc. My personal preference is Fox Labs, it seems to work the quickest, and most people are 8-11 minutes to eyes open, and it is the one that most people (to include instructors) don't want to be exposed to again as it seems to feel the hottest.


CY6
Greg Sullivan "Sully"
SLR15 Rifles
TheDefensiveEdge.com
(763) 712-0123
 

Flash22

Newbie
100% success with OC at work, a taser not so much. I'd highly suggest getting sprayed with what ever you carry since it will be on you as well if you go hands on. A lot of the people I work with refuse to carry it due to cross contamination concerns. It definitely gives you an advantage if deployed correctly before going hands on. OC works great on dogs as well in my experience with the Sabre red spray.

Nothing says fuck you like OC reactivating 3 hours later while your sitting in jail cell.
 

JeffM.

Amateur
Forgive me for bumping up an old post, but rather than starting a new post, this thread seems to be the best fit for my question. The "defensive display of a firearm" thread on Facebook has encouraged me to looking at adding OC spray as an intermediate use of force option to my EDC. In California, one cannot "brandish" a firearm unless they believe that there is imminent danger. Impact weapons are prohibited virtually across the board. OC seems to be the best option for instances where firm verbal commands aren't doing the trick, yet an imminent threat of great bodily harm isn't articulatable.

Fox Labs has been recommended several times in several places, but I haven't been able to find any credible information about their different products, specifically their "5.3", which seems to be their standard offering at a 2% concentration, versus their "Mean Green" which is advertised at 6%. Both are available in 2oz stream cans, which is the form factor I'm looking at. Does anyone here have actual experience with both products? Is there a significant difference?
 
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