ModCast 169 - Furthering discussion re; Pocket gun = SOCP dagger

Ryan St.Jean

Regular Member
I'm well aware of Craig's knives (I own some.) and the reasons for carrying a knife near the center line. My question for him would be specifically about replacing the clinch pick with something else due to local laws.

I applaud the efforts of the Knife Rights guys because I live in a state that restricts fixed-blade knife carry, even for those with permits to carry guns. I carry a knife or three at work because I think they're a useful option and would like to replicate that at home for similar reasons.
The way you rephrased it what you are curious about makes more sense to me now.
 

T29on2

Newbie
I’ve thought about this a lot lately and am changing my current duty line up to account for it. Sorry for the incoming wall of text.

My agency specifically prohibits the carrying of fixed blades for whatever reason, however they do have a pretty liberal BUG policy.

In the lethal force encounters that I’ve studied things rarely go according to plan... this seems to apply especially with defensive knife uses. I remember a P&S modcast where one of the guests had used a knife in a defensive situation and the number of strikes before his adversary finally gave up was something incredibly high. Ultimately he ended up doing time before later getting acquitted on appeal. I want to say it was One if the guys on the episode on the mindset of violence, but I could be mistaken.

I also think of the 2008 shooting involving Timothy Grammins that was highly publicized when it went down for the extreme round and hit count before the subject went down. I believe the bad guy was hit once in each lung, once in the heart, once in the kidney, in addition to taking 10 or so other .45 ACP rounds before he finally went down with three to the head/face.

With those things in mind, if I suffer a gun grab and end up with a guys hand pinned to my holster in an effort to retain my gun, or end up tied up on the ground with my strong side out of the fight and find the threshold for use of lethal force met, I would rather employ a j-frame or 42/43 with Chuck Pressburg’s philosophy of use long before I would a knife.

Tl;dr:

If it gets to the point where a back up lethal force option is required, shit has gone terribly, terribly wrong. I’d much rather have an off-hand heater than an off hand knife, but YMMV
 

Sunshine_Shooter

Established
I remember a P&S modcast where one of the guests had used a knife in a defensive situation and the number of strikes before his adversary finally gave up was something incredibly high. Ultimately he ended up doing time before later getting acquitted on appeal. I want to say it was One if the guys on the episode on the mindset of violence, but I could be mistaken.

His name is Varg Freeborn.
 

Runcible

Runcible Works
Staff member
Moderator
Vendor
Maybe, but I'm not convinced. The resistance to turning the cylinder would come from the other guy's finger tips, and against a smooth, rounded surface meant to be slipped in & out of holsters. My turning the cylinder is the full strength of my index finger/thumb pincer muscles, and against surfaces that are meant to be pulled upon (the trigger bow and grips). He'd definitely impede the gun's operation, but it seems unlikely that he'd stop it altogether. Also, as soon as his grasp is compromised in any way that cylinder is turning. It's something I hadn't considered and I'll keep in mind as a potential hurdle in the future.

This is not how it proofs out, for most.

The person attempting to control or take-away the gun is using the muscles of their hand (e.g. thumb) and forearm (e.g. other digits) to exert pressure onto the gun, and they may be using up to and including the rest of their body (kinetic power chain) to ripstart away at that gun... all of which may increase the crushing power of their grip as relates to arresting cylinder movement. Such an aggressor may grasp the cylinder with their fingertips as you supposed, or with their entire fingers and palm; I think it being more reasonable to expect such a whole-handed grasp.

In contrast, the person whom is attempting to retain or fire that revolver, is attempting to do so with their trigger finger as curled via a portion of the forearm musculature.

Additionally, the fluting or other metal relieved on a given revolver cylinder more than provides for traction points for an aggressor.
 

Sunshine_Shooter

Established
This is not how it proofs out, for most.

The person attempting to control or take-away the gun is using the muscles of their hand (e.g. thumb) and forearm (e.g. other digits) to exert pressure onto the gun, and they may be using up to and including the rest of their body (kinetic power chain) to ripstart away at that gun... all of which may increase the crushing power of their grip as relates to arresting cylinder movement. Such an aggressor may grasp the cylinder with their fingertips as you supposed, or with their entire fingers and palm; I think it being more reasonable to expect such a whole-handed grasp.

In contrast, the person whom is attempting to retain or fire that revolver, is attempting to do so with their trigger finger as curled via a portion of the forearm musculature.

Additionally, the fluting or other metal relieved on a given revolver cylinder more than provides for traction points for an aggressor.
You make some good points, I can see it going either way. I'll have to recreate it with an empty gun and see what happens.
 

Runcible

Runcible Works
Staff member
Moderator
Vendor
Sunshine Shooter,

Here's some additional on the matter: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread...rames-amp-ECQC&p=144066&viewfull=1#post144066


Gypsy EDC,

There's that; though an additional concern during entanglement may include not cutting yourself nor stabbing your non-blade-bearing hand\arm while getting your strikes in. Live-blade training occasionally involves oopsies, even without the pressure nor complexity of another human being's will being involved. For whatever reason, it seems to pop up when someone is trying to pin or stabilize the targeted bodypart, and then they either attempt to stab their opponent partially through the pinning hand or cutting across themselves if using the "edge." It's one of those things that doesn't have a huge penalty when using trainers, but draws the observer's eyes pretty quickly.
 
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