LPVO on home defense AR?

Mike_IA

Regular Member
Network Support II
#21
There really isn’t a speed advantage to the red dot sight.

There are scopes with automatic illumination if you think that’s going to be an issue. People also forget to turn on/off RDSes. People also misinterpret the level of illumination they will need.

Bro sure zeroing turrets will have anything to do with this application.

If we are using incompetence as a shooter in managing our own equipment as a reason to not choose a tool, perhaps red dots would also be checked off for many of the same reasons.

There are so many professionals choosing variables for the same roles. It’s what it is, a choice. Choose between a perceived speed benefit (which I’ll argue doesn’t exist after I learned what I was doing with one) and the many advantages offered by the LPVO.

Sure, for home defense there are only a few advantages the LPVO brings to the table, but in nearly every other situation the dot is a major disadvantage.

If you can have only one AR and optic, it should be a quality LPVO if you’re doing anything over 100 yards.



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Automatic brightness control? Have you trained, tried, or received instruction on this “feature” because in mixed light environments or when using weapon lights it will cycle and mess up to the point I do not know of a single credible trainer that says to enable automatic brightness control in any work or defensive sighting system.

As for red dots not being faster- that depends entirely on the training level and capability of the shooter. Next critical factor is the weight of the weapon. Then comes sighting system. (Somewhere in this forum, I believe I posted data comparing El Prez scores and times using different weight, length and optical systems).

I get it your on the LVPO train, I am too (even wrote a P&S published article on them), but if you are looking for optimum solutions for different problems you will end up with different weapons, equipment, and/or tactics.
 

user12358

Regular Member
#22
Automatic brightness control? Have you trained, tried, or received instruction on this “feature” because in mixed light environments or when using weapon lights it will cycle and mess up to the point I do not know of a single credible trainer that says to enable automatic brightness control in any work or defensive sighting system.
I would assume he is talking about systems that turn off the illumination and are either shake awake like some Leupold offerings or just require adjustment like a K16i since he was addressing your concerns about people leaving the battery on and draining it.
 

tylerw02

Regular Member
#23
There really isn’t a speed advantage to the red dot sight.

There are scopes with automatic illumination if you think that’s going to be an issue. People also forget to turn on/off RDSes. People also misinterpret the level of illumination they will need.

Bro sure zeroing turrets will have anything to do with this application.

If we are using incompetence as a shooter in managing our own equipment as a reason to not choose a tool, perhaps red dots would also be checked off for many of the same reasons.

There are so many professionals choosing variables for the same roles. It’s what it is, a choice. Choose between a perceived speed benefit (which I’ll argue doesn’t exist after I learned what I was doing with one) and the many advantages offered by the LPVO.

Sure, for home defense there are only a few advantages the LPVO brings to the table, but in nearly every other situation the dot is a major disadvantage.

If you can have only one AR and optic, it should be a quality LPVO if you’re doing anything over 100 yards.



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Automatic brightness control? Have you trained, tried, or received instruction on this “feature” because in mixed light environments or when using weapon lights it will cycle and mess up to the point I do not know of a single credible trainer that says to enable automatic brightness control in any work or defensive sighting system.

As for red dots not being faster- that depends entirely on the training level and capability of the shooter. Next critical factor is the weight of the weapon. Then comes sighting system. (Somewhere in this forum, I believe I posted data comparing El Prez scores and times using different weight, length and optical systems).

I get it your on the LVPO train, I am too (even wrote a P&S published article on them), but if you are looking for optimum solutions for different problems you will end up with different weapons, equipment, and/or tactics.
I don’t mean automatic brightness control but the automatic “on” feature. The “shake awake”.

Nowhere did I say that it was optimal in HD roles, but if a guy has ONE gun, and will shoot past 100, you’re leaving a ton on the table with a red dot.


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tylerw02

Regular Member
#24
Additionally, you know, well designed LPVOs don’t require batteries to be useful. Further, if you deem a dot is necessary, battery management isn’t that difficult.


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#25
Thanks for your replies and informed options. Just to clarify things since we seem to be going in circles:
-This is not my only AR. It is the dedicated home defense gun, a niche gun.

-This one, home defense specific rifle, may also be used by a petite lady who doesn’t shoot it very often.

-LPVOs are great and have a lot of uses and benefits on everything from patrol rifles to 3gun rigs

I still can’t think of a scenario where I am forced or even justified to shoot over 100 yards at my house and in self defense situation. I can see a scenario where my wife is forced to use the rifle.

With all that said, in my specific use case for this specific rifle I will keep the dot.
 

tylerw02

Regular Member
#26
Thanks for your replies and informed options. Just to clarify things since we seem to be going in circles:
-This is not my only AR. It is the dedicated home defense gun, a niche gun.

-This one, home defense specific rifle, may also be used by a petite lady who doesn’t shoot it very often.

-LPVOs are great and have a lot of uses and benefits on everything from patrol rifles to 3gun rigs

I still can’t think of a scenario where I am forced or even justified to shoot over 100 yards at my house and in self defense situation. I can see a scenario where my wife is forced to use the rifle.

With all that said, in my specific use case for this specific rifle I will keep the dot.
I think that is a wise decision.


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#27
Thanks for your replies and informed options. Just to clarify things since we seem to be going in circles:
-This is not my only AR. It is the dedicated home defense gun, a niche gun.

-This one, home defense specific rifle, may also be used by a petite lady who doesn’t shoot it very often.

-LPVOs are great and have a lot of uses and benefits on everything from patrol rifles to 3gun rigs

I still can’t think of a scenario where I am forced or even justified to shoot over 100 yards at my house and in self defense situation. I can see a scenario where my wife is forced to use the rifle.

With all that said, in my specific use case for this specific rifle I will keep the dot.
I wanted to revisit this thread to see if your, or anyone's, opinion on engagement distances have changed recently?
 
#28
I wanted to revisit this thread to see if your, or anyone's, opinion on engagement distances have changed recently?
I still stand by my earlier sentiments that "home defense" might mean more to some than "in-house CQB" and that potential distances encountered vary due to geography, circumstance, and nature of the threat.

I still stand by my sentiments that an RDS has its advantages even if practiced flat range stages happen to show thinner time margins.

The only thing "new" is exploring more deeply the use of MRDS's in conjunction with magnified optics and how there are several advantages beyond the obvious close/long range combo. Most importantly, the requirement to be married to a 1x bottom end optic and the limitations of an LPVO.
 
#29
One point to consider is the ability to obtain positive ID on a potential threat which may have other factors besides distance. Lighting (or lack of), shadows, particulates in the air, brush, etc. can also inhibit one's ability to get PID. A weird shadow, rain, or tall grass can obscure one's view at even relatively close distances and some magnification may be helpful. Of course it comes down to your application - if you are only concerned about identifying a threat inside the home and the longest distance inside is 10 yards, then a red dot + light is likely sufficient. Even if the farthest you can see on your property is not very far, 50 yards for example, do you need/can you get PID in less than ideal conditions?

One "aha" moment for me was at a carbine class a couple years back. Targets were spread at distances from about 40 yards out to 225 yards, some in plain sight and others just inside the tree line. Conditions were clear and daylight. One C-zone steel target had a dark color to it and was placed just inside the tree line only 40 or so yards away. With the shadow from the trees I could barely pick it up with my eyes and when I went to cover the target with my dot (at that time a Trijicon MRO) - I'd lose it between the shadow and the tint of the optic (the Gen 1 MRO had a bluish tint). Folks running a 1-4x or 1-6x had no issue identifying the target. I borrowed someone else's rig to take a look and what was pretty much invisible to me with the MRO at that range was easy to pick up at 4x.
 
#31
I wanted to revisit this thread to see if your, or anyone's, opinion on engagement distances have changed recently?
My opinions have not changed, my HD rifle still runs a MRO.

I have multiple ARs with different uses and setups. Some have dots, LPVOs, ACOG/45* offset RMR combos, etc. I like them all for different uses, but the red dot on the HD rifle is what I stuck with.

As far as PID: I live in a rural area and I can see just over 200 yards to our driveway gate and over 300 yards to parts of our property. I have a couple sets of binoculars laying around the house for checking out wildlife and such, and depeding on the hunting season there is an AR with a LPVO leaning in the corner of the living room as well. As a civilian, I'm hesitant to use a rifle for PID, during peace time, in the united states.
 
#32
Out of morbid curiosity, anybody know of an AAR or personally gone to DARC with an LPVO as a primary and no offset RDS? Closest I found was an article using an Elcan as one of 4 aiming options...and homeboy was going for the world record of the worlds heaviest CQB carbine setup...
 
#33
Out of morbid curiosity, anybody know of an AAR or personally gone to DARC with an LPVO as a primary and no offset RDS? Closest I found was an article using an Elcan as one of 4 aiming options...and homeboy was going for the world record of the worlds heaviest CQB carbine setup...
Not solely lpvo primary but there was someone at the last class I OPFOR'd who had an lpvo with an offset rmr, he took the lpvo off after a day or two said it wasn't usable. Pretty sure he had a standard height mount. I run a razor 1-6 in 1.54" mount with rmr straight on top and don't even bother with the lpvo after attemping during dry fire. Lower profile of the Airboss LBM helps but isn't enough. A 1.93" mount with slim mask and large 1x eyebox lpvo could be alright I think.
 
#34
Not solely lpvo primary but there was someone at the last class I OPFOR'd who had an lpvo with an offset rmr, he took the lpvo off after a day or two said it wasn't usable. Pretty sure he had a standard height mount. I run a razor 1-6 in 1.54" mount with rmr straight on top and don't even bother with the lpvo after attemping during dry fire. Lower profile of the Airboss LBM helps but isn't enough. A 1.93" mount with slim mask and large 1x eyebox lpvo could be alright I think.
At what distance did you zero that RMR at? I honestly cannot fathom trying to figure a hold for an aiming solution and guestimate where that POI will be that high up.
 
#35
At what distance did you zero that RMR at? I honestly cannot fathom trying to figure a hold for an aiming solution and guestimate where that POI will be that high up.
25 yards. It's bad but not nearly as bad as you would think, just aim higher than usual. Obviously worse than a more standard height but not much else for options, I think its worth the trade off.