Long Grips and Short Slides: What Am I Missing?

Sunshine_Shooter

Established
"Who are the people who are worried about the last 1/2" on their slide that you are referring to? " Datacshooter 5 comments ahead of me seems to think that it benefits him.
Caomhin agrees with Datacshooter
NYSCourtOfficer mentions that he/she heard it somewhere else, and is going to see if there's anything to it.

You said "And 99% of the users wouldnt break a 1.75 draw so is the extra saved 0.002 really a good argument?" and I replied that we here at P&S try to make ourselves better, no matter what the average user does or doesn't do.

"I do not believe the "faster out of the holster" argument to be valid. Is anyone training with a draw stroke that would be affected by an extra 1/2" of slide length? If so, is there any data to back up that claim?"
Datacshooter attributes the decrease in draw time to the grip size not the slide, but says there's something there. NYSCourtOfficer is getting his/her own data on the matter.

Not sure what you meant with the name calling comment, but I do agree that we need to keep discussions here reasonable and civil.
 

BooneGA

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
WARLORD
Well in an effort to actually provide some data to this conversation I drove over to my friend (and local FFL)'s house to put this on the clock.

I used Bill Blower's method of timing from his videos on malfunction clearance - firing the gun as soon as I had a sight picture regardless of where it is on the target. It was getting late so these are only 20 shot strings.

For reference:
Guns: Gen 4 Glock 17 (stock except for - connector and sights), and showroom stock 19x.
Holsters: Safariland 6354s respectively. I chose a duty holster because an appendix carry draw stroke would not be as affected by the shorter slide (in theory).

17-
20 shot average: 1.02 (I did not throw out 2 fumbled draws)
Best: .88

19x-
20 shot average: .98 (only 1 fumbled draw)
Best: .87

I did experiment a bit with forcing the front sight/top of the slide against the front of the holster in an attempt to "maximize" on the shorter slide length of the 19X (the theory being that the shorter slide would come free of the holster sooner and my presentation would be shortened). It was an unnatural draw for me and I didn't see any benefit. I have been attending training since 2006 and carrying a gun professionally since 2008 - during this period I never been instructed on a draw technique that would be effected by the shorter slide length. As I asked previously, has anyone here seen an instructor advocate for such a draw stroke? It is completely possible that it is out there and I am simply unaware.

I look forward to any other quality input and hope I can get some other shooters behind both guns and on the clock this weekend. I am still of the opinion that the 19X is best suited for those whose hands benefit from the larger grip but still want a 19 length slide for concealabilty. Matt, I understand what you are saying about a 19 being easier to carry while sitting, but then you follow it up with you carry a 34 on duty. Im not trying to be combative here, but with the reasoning thats been provided a glock 17 grip with a 26 slide would be the "ideal" duty gun. I have nothing personally against the 19x - or any pistol that meets someones requirements. Im just trying to get an understanding of why this gun is so divisive and I struggle to make sense of the arguments on both sides.

Lastly, I have also seen "faster cycling of the slide" referenced but without any data or references to back that up. Does anyone have something that provides insight on that topic? I have recorded a difference in split times that puts my 17 and 34 as faster than my 19, regardless of how fast the slide is cycling.

Rick
 

Longinvs

Regular Member
Quantified Performance
Personally I’m a big fan of the “carry” sized guns. In the case of the 19x I prefer the 17’s grip because it has a slower curve down the back strap, but I feel the compact slide drives better than the full sized slides. Plus, it makes a great candidate for a fauxland special without ending with some 17L length gun.
Ultimately the gun wasn’t designed for the civ market. Having the shorter slide is awesome if you find that a full length slide digs into your seat in a vehicle for example. Currently I carry a 509, which is from the same contract, same concept. I carry it in a vedder light tuck and I find that in the car it keeps the gun from impacting on my seat belt or the seat, but I want a full size grip and capacity. If I carry it appendix it’s long enough to get leveraged against my hip back into my body without being too long and crowding anything. I’m 5’7”, I got a narrow window to work with.
 

BooneGA

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
WARLORD
Yeah I definitely get the shorter gun riding better in a vehicle. I went a QLS on my Safariland and would ditch the pistol on long rides in the Hilux. With body armor on and a rifle in the floorboard you run out of room fast.

I havent had my hands on a 509 (or is it a Saab?) - how is it size wise in comparison to the 19X?

Rick
 

Caomhin

Member
Until you put a light on it... And 99% of the users wouldnt break a 1.75 draw so is the extra saved 0.002 really a good argument?

Rick
I don’t believe it is a good argument. I was just saying what I heard. I think that somebody who knows what their doing can draw a Glock 34 just as fast as a Glock 19.

I think that same person could draw a shorter slide/barrel pistol just a HAIR quicker though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Luke

Newbie
There have been a few 19X milled and comped, Giving you a proper full size grip with the comp and not getting longer than a 34
 

BooneGA

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
WARLORD
There have been a few 19X milled and comped, Giving you a proper full size grip with the comp and not getting longer than a 34

The comps went on 19s because the additional barrel length didnt matter as much if you had an X300 on there but you maintained the shorter grip for concealability. I shoot my 19 with a KKM and 34 back to back and really dont notice a difference. Adding a comp to a 19X just seems like a really expensive way to make a gun pretty much equal to a stock 34. Add in having to run hotter ammo for the comp to function as intended and I think you are likey creating more problems than you could possibly be solving.

I have yet to see a true scientific test of various comps - has anyone else seen anything done well? So far all I have to go on is feel or a shot timer (neither of which is scientific).

Rick

(edit - up to late and misread the last post)
 
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RoxClymer

Newbie
I've been wanting to ask this for a while now: what's with the trend with current pistol manufacturers to put a compact-length slide on a full-sized frame? SIG offers a model of the P320 called the "Carry" model but they also have the "Compact" model (which has a shorter grip that allows for a wider variety of magazines to be used, shorter for compactness and longer for increased capacity) and the "Full Size" model (which offers a longer sight radius and barrel length). I can understand making a pistol that has a shorter grip and a longer slide, but gun companies seem to be going the opposite direction... and I can't figure out what the advantage is supposed to be.

I started watching the pre-show of the Modcast on Youtube tonight and folks in the comments were talking about a gun whose existence I was unaware of: the Glock 19X.

http://19x.glock.us/

This is basically Glock's entry into the MHS trials, soon to be commercially-available. It is essentially a Glock 19 but with the longer grip of the Glock 17 (and with a grip safety, tan coloration, and probably other things that really aren't germane to this topic). In the Modcast comments, I opined that the G19 would make more sense than the G19X as a shorter grip would have made more sense for concealment. The retort to this was that the MHS trails were not looking for a concealable pistol; fair enough, but then why not just adopt the G17? I get that the muzzle velocity increase of the G17 vs. the G19 is negligible, as is the increase in sight radius, but aren't sight radius and muzzle velocity two things that "you can't have too much of"? Also, why not adopt a proven, existing pistol model instead of a "snowflake" like the G19X? Finally, if the "short slide/long grip" thing is really that great for the .mil (for whatever reason), then why didn't SIG offer their "Carry" version of the P320 to the MHS trial in lieu of the Full Size and Compact models, both of which are now adopted as the M17 and M18 respectively?

Someone in the Modcast comments alluded to a Kyle DeFoor article where DeFoor wrote of shortening sight radius on a carbine to achieve an optimal balance of speed and accuracy (i.e.: he shortened sight radius and found that he and many of his students became faster than with a longer sight radius) which I had never heard of, but then searched for and found here:


Does this apply to pistols too? If it does, then why have competitive shooters flocked for so long to the G34 instead of the G19 (or, better yet, the G26)? Indeed, why does the G34 and G17L even exist; shouldn't the G17 (and now, the G19X) be better in every way? Why aren't custom shops cutting dovetails farther back on pistol slides for the front sight to correct the "too long" sight radius?

Even if this is just something that nobody else has clued into yet and the proof that the G19 barrel length and sight radius really is the future for pistols, I still struggle to see the advantage of a longer grip; maybe Steve Fisher's hands are "too big" for a G19's grip (I've been shooting my G26 too long to really believe that the comfort of my right pinky finger ties into the fundamentals of shooting) but are we really, as a community of shooters, inclined towards being Yeti-sized? Did SIG introduce a verison of the P320 especially for that untapped market that is abnormally-large shooters ("let's make a different SKU just for them; there must be tens of potential customers!")? Some would argue that there's no harm in a longer grip so why not, but wasn't the G19, with its shortened grip, initially produced for greater concealment? Was the G26 not intended to be even more so? Also on the .mil side of the house this flies in the face of SEALs and MARSOC adopting the G19 instead of the G17, to say nothing of not insisting on Glock inventing and then supplying them with the G19X instead... right?

The argument that "it's the government so of course it doesn't make sense" is the closest one to satisfying me, but Glock, SIG, et al aren't the .gov, the .gov is merely one of their customers. Glock has come up with some goofy models in the past (.45 GAP, anyone?) so is the G19X simply another example of that? If so, why are more and more companies making the same gaffe this time around? I get that they'll sell anything that we'll buy, but how did the concept gain so much traction in the first place?

Meanwhile, how many of us who have been wishing for a G19L for years and years are sadly shaking our heads?
easy, I have gorilla-size hands, so I want a longer grip, but I want something easier to holster/conceal than a duty-size pistol,
sure a larger grip is more visable, but with a 4" or 5" barrel you have to consider how much room is in your pants.
sure shootability suffers with a shorter sight radius, it also suffers when you don't have a good grip on the gun.

and frankly, I won't 'short list' a gun if it's not comfortable in my hand.

now that it's 2023, I have 'long listed' the PDP-F because there is a 15 rd 3.5" variant"
 
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