LE Backup guns

[Keith03]

What are people running for backup guns and why? My department has a bunch of Officers running J frames, Glock 43s etc. One of our firearms instructors and some others are big fans of having a backup gun that accepts the mags from the primary gun. He carries a Glock 21 as a primary and a Glock 30 as a backup. A lot of the Deputy’s in my area do that as well. In my case, I carry a G17. My thought would be a Glock 26. My only hesitation is that if I go up a little in size, I own a glock 19 already and a XC-1B. That might be large for a for a guy that is 5’8” and 165lbs. On the other side, a 26 may still be thick.
How are folks carrying backup guns?

Thanks

 

[Arete]

I've seen and known and personally carried a variety of BUGs in a variety of ways.

G42 in a BFG pocket holster in front support side pocket is what I've been doing for awhile now and I like it a lot.

Formerly carried a j-frame same location for many years. Also carried it in a kydex holster velcro'd to a the sternum area of my body armor for some time and liked that. Could probably have carried a G26 in the same way.

G42 has 2 more shots than my 442, and .380 ball penetrates about as deeply as good 9mm JHP, although it doesn't expand.

While the BUG and the primary having mag compatibility is nice, the extra bulk of a G30 or G26/27 is just too much for many people.
Some methods of carry (vest strap under the armpit) can be inaccessible in a lot of situations.
Ankle carry in a groundfight can be very counterproductive.

 

[ggammell]

Kahr PM9 pocket carry reaction/weak side.

I don’t buy into the mag commonality thing for back ups. I see back ups as a GTFO Me option. I do carry a reload for my back up. The PM9 + Reload weighs less and is smaller than a 27 would be. With the Blauer pants the Reload goes into one of the elasticized pockets inside the cargo pocket.

I refuse to do ankle carry. I just don’t like junk around my feet.

 

[jnc36rcpd]

I carry a S&W Shield in a Gladius vest holster. It isn't compatible with the magazines for my duty pistol (FNS-9), but it's a decent caliber and fairly high capacity for a back-up gun.
I like the idea of magazine compatibility, but for many, a BUG that can handle duty magazines may be too large or heavy. I did consider an FNS Compact, but that would definitely be bulky on a vest or ankle.

 

[jBravo3]

I've been waiting for this thread to pop up for a while. I acknowledge that a backup, if not a necessity, is a really freakin' good idea. I'm inching towards two decades of experience and I still don't have a solution I'm happy with though. When I first started, I was issued a G22, and carried a G27 on my left ankle in a Galco. In one of my first foot pursuits, the 27 came flying out of the holster and skidded down the street in front of me. Fortunately I saw and felt it happen, but I haven't carried in an ankle rig since (recovered the 27 and still got the guy btw). Since then I think I've tried about every option out there as far as a uniformed backup carry method, and I've been most happy with pocket carry (retention and concealability are a couple of positives - ymmv), but there's still a few things I don't like about it (size of the gun I can realistically carry, accessibility with both hands, etc.). Speaking of gun, I can't get that figured out either. Over the years, I've tried everything from a 27, to an LCP to a 42, a 43, a Shield, and, yes, I'll admit this on here...I even briefly flirted with a little NAA PUG 22mag (if you don't know, good). I'm waiting on a professional grade LCP sized 9mm to hit the market but I haven't seen it yet. The Shield is almost what I want but it's just a bit too big. Anyway, all that just to say thanks to OP for bringing this up, and I'll be sittin' back watchin'.

 

[Arete]

I learned that a j frame when carried in a cargo pocket will come out of the pocket when falling to my back.
The inertia involved is too much for the Velcro.
Trousers used were 511 TDU.

 

[WAVandal]

I use a Glock 43 with a +2 base pad on my mag. The gun currently rides in a sticky holster in an inner pocket of my outer vest. Gives me 8+1 capacity should either my G17 go down or I burn through all 4 mags and can't get to my rifle. The G43 replaced a S&W 642 in .38+P.

Oddly enough, I'm one of the few in my department who has a back-up gun.

 

[Brad Trittipo]

I have carried a J-Frame in a Raven Phantom attached to my vest under my non-dominate arm for 16yrs. I started with the Uncle Mikes vest holster and quickly switch to Raven when they hit the market. I had Raven add a piece of hook velcro that covers the entire back of the holster and is attached the same way as their belt attachments. I carry a speed strip in each thigh pocket with only 5 rounds so I have a longer tab to hold onto.

For the last 2 months I have switched to a Shield carried in the same location, but in a Blade-Tech IWB. I carry an extra mag under my dominate arm under the vest trap. I have found that Blade-Tech QC is horrible and the gun would fall out of the holster when you turn it upside down. I removed the factory screws and used shorter screws to tighten the holster up slightly. I am concerned to tighten it any more as it will damage the holster. I attached outdoor heavy duty hook velcro to the holster and wear it under the strap. The strap helps to tighten the holster slightly. I went with Blade-Tech over Raven because I could not find any Phantoms. I have finally found a few at a retailer and plan to switch to the Phantom for further testing.

I actually bought the Shield for the sole reason of using it as a back-up, but could not find the holster I wanted. I chose the Shield for its size and chose 40 because that is our duty caliber. I no longer have to remember to bring my own ammo for range days as I did with the J-Frame. If it was really that bad, I could reload the Shield mags from my duty mags.

I shoot the Shield better than my J-Frame and reloads are faster. The only improvement I want to make to the Shield is Boresight Duty package grip stippling to improve the grip traction. The factory grip is slick if you have been sweating or quickly drawing it from deep cover.

I like ankle carry when off duty for my back-up, I do not trust it for work. I feel with vest carry, even if the pistol comes out, it is trapped and not going anywhere.

 

[darbywpd]

Anyone have experience carrying a BUG while wearing a uniform shirt style outer carrier? Ankle is a no, as is pocket carry. I was thinking one of the Air Marshal/Kangaroo Carry rigs. Thanks

 

[MrMurphy]

Primary is a G21. Carried a 30 for 14 yrs IWB, not gonna do it for a BUG. I use a Shield in a Mika vest holster. 4 years, love it. 8 or 9 footpursuits and many a pig pile without issue. Benchmade in left front pocket with a second Shield mag, giving me 15 Oh Shit rounds if the 21 stops working. Looking at a Benchmade punch dagger on the left ankle for GTFO me use, since it's light, and a knife is less troubling to lose than a gun, if it came down to kicking it loose.

 

[jnc36rcpd]

darbywpd, a friend told me that several officers on his shift carried BUG's in bellybands under their external carriers. I don't know if that practice has withstood the test of time.

 

[Keith03]

Does anyone know about something that mounts to the center line of the vest? We use a normal concealable vest under a jumpsuit. I swear I saw something that was almost like the vest pocket of the carrier is usually used for a hard plate, but it pulled down to give access to the gun. Does anyone know what I’m talking about?

Do we have DT folks in here who have found some locations to fail or prevail in a ground fight?

I own a J frame and have friends with 43s and 26s. I am hoping to try those in various locations to try to figure this out.

Is there a consensus to set up the backup gun primarily to be accessed by the strong hand or support hand?

 

[MrMurphy]

Pretty sure you mean the BUG Pocket. Never used one, but it apparently has many fans.

 

[jnc36rcpd]

I used an older version of the BUG Pocket that sewed to the vest carrier before I transitioned to a mesh vest. I have a 10-24 Products carrier of similar design. I didn't feel the velcro attached 10-24 was as comfortable as the old BUG Pocket, but I have not tried the new BUG Pocket.

 

[Keith03]

Bug pocket vs gladius?

 

[Keith03]

Thanks for all the input everyone!

I have found a bunch of folks who like J frames for back up guns. Usually mentioning something about reliability and contact shots not fouling the gun like an auto. Personally, I shoot my J frame worse than about anything else I have ever tried and I am not sure it’s really any smaller than a G26. I shot a friend’s G26 out to 25 yards and although there was no time constraint, I shot it damn near as well as my 17. Is there an actual history of autos getting fouled in ground fights?

I guess this brings up the purpose or role of backup guns. I know of two examples where the primary gun was shot or what lost when the officer was shot. Leaving them with just the backup gun. Come to think of it, we had a couple guns get shot the last time we did force on force too.

I could see a backup gun getting employed while trying to stop a gun grab, which would lead to support side access.

For those of you who have carried a backup under the support side armpit, how accessible is it with the support hand?

What is the value of a light or dare I say laser on a backup gun?

Is the size thing something that folks can deal with like the size of a concealed carry gun? When I worked in a gun shop a lot of people felt like the glock 19 was too big to conceal or carry daily. I used to carry a 19 all the time, now I carry a 17 with a TLR1 in a JMCK wing claw most of the time, with the 19 in the remainder. I never would have that that was doable for me a year ago.

 

[jnc36rcpd]

Keith, remember I used the older sew-on version of the BUG Pocket. The 10-24 doesn't fit as tight to the chest, but I don't think it's uncomfortable. The current BUG has thicker straps and might be more comfortable.
That said, both the Gladius and BUG/10-24 have advantages and disadvantages. You can easily access the BUG/10-24 with either hand. My subjective opinion is that it's probably more comfortable when you get used to it. To present the weapon, you'll need to open your shirt far enough down that you can access the front of the BUG/10-24, grasp the strap, rip down, and then draw the weapon. On the street, you may or may not have both hands available to perform these tasks. You may also have to give up a hard trauma plate to reduce printing.
With the Gladius, you have to set it up for right or left handed draw. While you can certainly draw with the other hand, it's going to be easier with the selected hand. Since the Gladius allows you to rock the gun forward, it is easier to present than a straight up/down holster. Since the Gladius attaches with Velcro, you have some flexibility in positioning the holster (and magazine carrier). I think you may need to take care in positioning the holster to avoid printing. While you will need to open your shirt to draw, you probably don't need to do so as deeply as with the BUG/10-24.
Neither system is perfect, but they're both viable options. Good luck and be safe.

 

[Arete]

A BUG is a compromise. The bigger/bulkier they are, the harder they are to carry.

Most lights and lasers are gonna make the gun too big/bulky. In the case of the LG on my j-frame, no bulk added, so IMO a good addition. Esp since if having to take a shot at any distance, the sights on that gun are so poor, the laser is a good addition.

Ref contact shots and BUGs. I have no direct experience and don't know of any, so maybe someone else does. However, I once experienced the cylinder of my j-frame locking up from a very, very small piece of I don't even know what it was. It was so small that I couldn't detect it, and brushing the cylinder/frame area out solved it, but it was very disconcerting that something so small could have such an effect. Not soon after I ditched the j-frame for a G42.

When you contact shoot someone, you are gonna get blowback/debris into the gun, the cylinder, etc. and I could see how you might only get the 1 shot off due to debris preventing the cylinder from moving.

With a semi auto, if you push the slide out of battery when contact shooting and you get a dead trigger, just pull the gun back ever so slightly and the gun will work just fine. I have contact shot lots of targets with clothing on them with a semi auto and never had a problem with the gun not working. I need to replicate this with the j-frame and see what happens. I have shot the j frame with hand and gun in a pocket, and it worked just fine, so there's that.

I have long subscribed to the idea that a BUG should be carried on the support side or centerline, as when someone tries to get your duty pistol out of the holster, you can tie them up with the strong hand and then use the support hand to access the BUG.

When this actually happened to me, I had this as an option. I didn't have to solve it with deadly force, but I had the ability to do so just like I had prepared to.

Having to reach the BUG tucked under the armpit always seemed like a much more difficult proposition to me, so after trying it for a short time, I abandoned it.

Thanks for all the input everyone!

I have found a bunch of folks who like J frames for back up guns. Usually mentioning something about reliability and contact shots not fouling the gun like an auto. Personally, I shoot my J frame worse than about anything else I have ever tried and I am not sure it’s really any smaller than a G26. I shot a friend’s G26 out to 25 yards and although there was no time constraint, I shot it damn near as well as my 17. Is there an actual history of autos getting fouled in ground fights?

I guess this brings up the purpose or role of backup guns. I know of two examples where the primary gun was shot or what lost when the officer was shot. Leaving them with just the backup gun. Come to think of it, we had a couple guns get shot the last time we did force on force too.

I could see a backup gun getting employed while trying to stop a gun grab, which would lead to support side access.

For those of you who have carried a backup under the support side armpit, how accessible is it with the support hand?

What is the value of a light or dare I say laser on a backup gun?

Is the size thing something that folks can deal with like the size of a concealed carry gun? When I worked in a gun shop a lot of people felt like the glock 19 was too big to conceal or carry daily. I used to carry a 19 all the time, now I carry a 17 with a TLR1 in a JMCK wing claw most of the time, with the 19 in the remainder. I never would have that that was doable for me a year ago.

 

[weaver1032]

My BUG has evolved over the last 24 years or so. At my first agency (4 years) I was required to carry an issued Glock 17 and any other gun I carried (by policy only allowed 1 other) had to be a Glock 9 or 45. I went with a 26 as a BUG. I carried on a vest holster velcroed to about the 2 o'clock position on my vest.

When I changed agencies I was required to carry a 9 or 40 from a large list of approved makers. I went with a Glock 22 and 27 carried in the same manner as my previous 17/26. After about 2 years I changed to an outer vest carrier for comfort which negated carrying my BUG in the same manner. I ended up doing a Desantis pocket holster velcroed into the offside cargo pocket on my TDU pants. The 27 was horrible in this role due to its size, thickness, and weight. I found myself not carrying it in short order. I ended up with a Ruger LCP a few months later carried in a Raven pocket holster velcroed in the same manner. This was a good set up though I wasn't keen on carrying a Ruger and the 380 round was not inspiring.

When the Glock 42 came out I bought one quite quickly and carried it in the same manner until the G43 was released. Somewhere in the G42 timeframe, I switched to a Desantis Nemesis pocket holster bolted to a Raven Concealment Pocketshield. This is what I'm still using with the G43. The Pocketshield keeps the gun oriented properly and doesn't shift. I wear First Tactical BDUs on patrol and the gun rides in the inner part of the cargo pocket and is held tight to the leg, doesn't bounce and is quite comfortable. Its also virtually invisible to anyone. I've never worried about it coming out in a fight and it has been solid. Worst I've had is it rotate 90degrees in the pocket in a fight but it never felt like it was coming out.

If I were to do something differently, I've seen JG and other make an interior pocket behind the "button placket" front of an outer carrier. The BUG is then carried inside this pocket, either velcroed in place or in a soft fabric holster sewn in. I'm curious to try that as it seems like a good solution but I haven't had a reason to do anything different than what I'm doing now.

 

[SCSU74]

My BUG has evolved over the last 24 years or so. At my first agency (4 years) I was required to carry an issued Glock 17 and any other gun I carried (by policy only allowed 1 other) had to be a Glock 9 or 45. I went with a 26 as a BUG. I carried on a vest holster velcroed to about the 2 o'clock position on my vest.

When I changed agencies I was required to carry a 9 or 40 from a large list of approved makers. I went with a Glock 22 and 27 carried in the same manner as my previous 17/26. After about 2 years I changed to an outer vest carrier for comfort which negated carrying my BUG in the same manner. I ended up doing a Desantis pocket holster velcroed into the offside cargo pocket on my TDU pants. The 27 was horrible in this role due to its size, thickness, and weight. I found myself not carrying it in short order. I ended up with a Ruger LCP a few months later carried in a Raven pocket holster velcroed in the same manner. This was a good set up though I wasn't keen on carrying a Ruger and the 380 round was not inspiring.

When the Glock 42 came out I bought one quite quickly and carried it in the same manner until the G43 was released. Somewhere in the G42 timeframe, I switched to a Desantis Nemesis pocket holster bolted to a Raven Concealment Pocketshield. This is what I'm still using with the G43. The Pocketshield keeps the gun oriented properly and doesn't shift. I wear First Tactical BDUs on patrol and the gun rides in the inner part of the cargo pocket and is held tight to the leg, doesn't bounce and is quite comfortable. Its also virtually invisible to anyone. I've never worried about it coming out in a fight and it has been solid. Worst I've had is it rotate 90degrees in the pocket in a fight but it never felt like it was coming out.

If I were to do something differently, I've seen JG and other make an interior pocket behind the "button placket" front of an outer carrier. The BUG is then carried inside this pocket, either velcroed in place or in a soft fabric holster sewn in. I'm curious to try that as it seems like a good solution but I haven't had a reason to do anything different than what I'm doing now.

How are you bolting the nemesis to the shield?