I have been interested in these since they were announced and I would love to hear about any personal experiences people have with them. I figured this is a unique enough weapon it deserves its own thread to discuss pros and cons as well as any problems encountered while using the weapon.
Kel-Tec KSG
- Thread starter Justin
- Start date
Bronson
Fury
Yeti (Steve Fisher) knows more about them than I and has a larger data pool.
I've been doing a T&E of the KSG-12 for awhile now, but I am only a sample of one with a personally owned weapon system. I am not a fan of bullpups due to difficulty in loading as well as my face being closer to a potential kaboom, but it is a solution applicable for the shotgun.
Installation, Operation, Maintenance (IOM)
NEGATIVES:
1) Poor Materials / Composition For A Firearm
Plastics are not an ideal material for a firearm as they are not as reliable / durable as others.
2) Decreased Life Cycle
With the subpar materials used, life cycle of the weapon system and parts is decreased. Another problem is that unlike the M4 FOW there is not a standard out for periodic parts replacement at round count intervals.
3) No Spare Parts Commercially Available
There are a lack of spare parts commercially available. There are a few upgrades to parts that are COTS - but no dedicated spare parts or replacement packages.
4) No Armorer Support
This and #3 are mainly what killed our looking into the KSG-12 for adoption as a ballistic breaching platform. There are no Armorer Courses or Armorer Support for the platform. The weapon system must be sent back to Kel-Tec which would leave the Ballistic Breacher without a materiel solution to accomplish his mission (or he'd revert to the M500, but training time is limited for initial & sustainment training to build proficiency.)
POSITIVES:
1) Ammunition Capacity:
The KSG-12 has 14+1 capacity for 12 Gauge Shotgun Shells. This allows for 15 shotgun shells being expended before you need to reload.
2) Internal Ammunition Storage;
The KSG-12 doesn't have large obtrusive magazines such as those in rival 12 gauge platforms, to include the Saiga 12. The issue with magazine-fed shotguns is where to store additional magazines, where to store partial magazines, and how to consolidate ammunition.
3) Modularity:
The KSG-12 has an aluminum top rail for attachment of SOPMOD accessories such as optics, lights, lasers. It has a shorter bottom rail as well.
4) Length:
Overall Length (OAL) is approximately the same as my Mossberg M500 in ballistic breaching configuration (pistol grip).
5) Safety: Safety is similar to M249/M240/MK48 weapon safeties. It is easy and intuitive to use and compliments the existing manual of arms. My principle is engaging the safety during reloading and prior to movement - this compliments it.
Operation (IOM):
Ammunition Capacity is 14+1 12 Gauge Shells. Two tubes hold 7 shells each. You can select via lever which tube will utilized / able to be loaded. The issue selector is small, there are larger aftermarket selectors available. Only one tube can be loaded at a time.
Loading: Loading the KSG-12 is difficult and time-consuming. Initially I turned the weapon system upside down to load during initial train-up and for Yeti's course. I've since transitioned to simply canting the weapon system 90 degrees pointing it downwards and going by feel. The reason I did this was because I needed a reloading system that would work in light, low light, no light, et al. If I have to load support hand I cant it 90 degrees the opposite direction.
Invest in some inert 12 Gauge training rounds if you truly want to become proficient in reloading, which you should aspire to be.
Action: The action is not as smooth as the Remington 870 or Mossberg 500. I had a bit over 5% failure rate where I negligently short stroked the KSG-12 pump action. More training time to include dry practice and a Magpul grip stop have reduced this.
Loading: The KSG-12 is more amenable to loading via the Louis Awerbuck method of loading the tube first and then chambering a shell followed by feeding more shells into the tube. This makes Slug Select Drills much more difficult and at risk of higher rates of malfunctions. That is not an issue with me as I only run buckshot in my shotguns.
Malfunction Clearance: Immediate Action is easy to conduct. Remedial Action is more difficult compared to the Remington 870 & Mossberg M500. This is mostly due to difficulty in extracting shells by hand.
Modularity: The KSG-12 offers decent modularity, though not as much as the M4 FOW. As issued, there is a top rail and and bottom rail.
I have a front iron sight, breaching light(s), white / IR light, IR/VIS Laser, RDS, Magnifier, rear iron sight on mine. I (jokingly) tell people it's the weapon I'd risk UCMJ action to bring overseas with me.
Mesa Tactical makes an aftermarket rail for them. Their regular rail is better (and has two attachment points on the side for Picatinny sections), the Sidesaddle Rail sticks out too far and negatively affects weapon weight and balance. I have breaching lights set up on the smaller Picatinny sections.
I recommend against QD mounts on the KSG-12 due to the increased recoil impulse which will toss accessories off it like a bull. Loctite is your ally.
The bottom Picatinny rail is plastic, not aluminum. As such, it is not as effective as an aluminum rail and will have increased rate of equipment loss due to this and recoil impulse.
I have a kydex cheek piece that fits over the stock which has Velcro on it for an Esstac shotgun card. The card can be pulled off when empty and replaced with another.
My other kydex cheek piece has that and a 3/16" circular recoil pad on it. They can be popped off and replaced easily.
Maintenance (IOM):
As stated, -10 Level Maintenance is practically nonexistent unless you need to replace issue parts with parts that available aftermarket.
No spare parts commercially available, no Armorer Courses, no Armorer Support. Weapon systems must be sent back to Kel-Tec for repair.
SPECIALTY ROLES:
In addition to ballistic breaching, I believe the KSG-12 has merit in the role of Less Lethal.
Every time I watched footage of Ferguson PD responding to the riots I wished those studs let loose with KSG-12's loaded with Less Lethal rounds with interlocking sectors of fire. I would pay good money to see that converging effect on a crowd.
I'll publish photos of my current iteration after my work contract is complete (I have an article about it in the works but can't publish due to terms) - but that'll likely be awhile.
I'll probably buy another just to have a spare weapon system on hand.
I've been doing a T&E of the KSG-12 for awhile now, but I am only a sample of one with a personally owned weapon system. I am not a fan of bullpups due to difficulty in loading as well as my face being closer to a potential kaboom, but it is a solution applicable for the shotgun.
Installation, Operation, Maintenance (IOM)
NEGATIVES:
1) Poor Materials / Composition For A Firearm
Plastics are not an ideal material for a firearm as they are not as reliable / durable as others.
2) Decreased Life Cycle
With the subpar materials used, life cycle of the weapon system and parts is decreased. Another problem is that unlike the M4 FOW there is not a standard out for periodic parts replacement at round count intervals.
3) No Spare Parts Commercially Available
There are a lack of spare parts commercially available. There are a few upgrades to parts that are COTS - but no dedicated spare parts or replacement packages.
4) No Armorer Support
This and #3 are mainly what killed our looking into the KSG-12 for adoption as a ballistic breaching platform. There are no Armorer Courses or Armorer Support for the platform. The weapon system must be sent back to Kel-Tec which would leave the Ballistic Breacher without a materiel solution to accomplish his mission (or he'd revert to the M500, but training time is limited for initial & sustainment training to build proficiency.)
POSITIVES:
1) Ammunition Capacity:
The KSG-12 has 14+1 capacity for 12 Gauge Shotgun Shells. This allows for 15 shotgun shells being expended before you need to reload.
2) Internal Ammunition Storage;
The KSG-12 doesn't have large obtrusive magazines such as those in rival 12 gauge platforms, to include the Saiga 12. The issue with magazine-fed shotguns is where to store additional magazines, where to store partial magazines, and how to consolidate ammunition.
3) Modularity:
The KSG-12 has an aluminum top rail for attachment of SOPMOD accessories such as optics, lights, lasers. It has a shorter bottom rail as well.
4) Length:
Overall Length (OAL) is approximately the same as my Mossberg M500 in ballistic breaching configuration (pistol grip).
5) Safety: Safety is similar to M249/M240/MK48 weapon safeties. It is easy and intuitive to use and compliments the existing manual of arms. My principle is engaging the safety during reloading and prior to movement - this compliments it.
Operation (IOM):
Ammunition Capacity is 14+1 12 Gauge Shells. Two tubes hold 7 shells each. You can select via lever which tube will utilized / able to be loaded. The issue selector is small, there are larger aftermarket selectors available. Only one tube can be loaded at a time.
Loading: Loading the KSG-12 is difficult and time-consuming. Initially I turned the weapon system upside down to load during initial train-up and for Yeti's course. I've since transitioned to simply canting the weapon system 90 degrees pointing it downwards and going by feel. The reason I did this was because I needed a reloading system that would work in light, low light, no light, et al. If I have to load support hand I cant it 90 degrees the opposite direction.
Invest in some inert 12 Gauge training rounds if you truly want to become proficient in reloading, which you should aspire to be.
Action: The action is not as smooth as the Remington 870 or Mossberg 500. I had a bit over 5% failure rate where I negligently short stroked the KSG-12 pump action. More training time to include dry practice and a Magpul grip stop have reduced this.
Loading: The KSG-12 is more amenable to loading via the Louis Awerbuck method of loading the tube first and then chambering a shell followed by feeding more shells into the tube. This makes Slug Select Drills much more difficult and at risk of higher rates of malfunctions. That is not an issue with me as I only run buckshot in my shotguns.
Malfunction Clearance: Immediate Action is easy to conduct. Remedial Action is more difficult compared to the Remington 870 & Mossberg M500. This is mostly due to difficulty in extracting shells by hand.
Modularity: The KSG-12 offers decent modularity, though not as much as the M4 FOW. As issued, there is a top rail and and bottom rail.
I have a front iron sight, breaching light(s), white / IR light, IR/VIS Laser, RDS, Magnifier, rear iron sight on mine. I (jokingly) tell people it's the weapon I'd risk UCMJ action to bring overseas with me.
Mesa Tactical makes an aftermarket rail for them. Their regular rail is better (and has two attachment points on the side for Picatinny sections), the Sidesaddle Rail sticks out too far and negatively affects weapon weight and balance. I have breaching lights set up on the smaller Picatinny sections.
I recommend against QD mounts on the KSG-12 due to the increased recoil impulse which will toss accessories off it like a bull. Loctite is your ally.
The bottom Picatinny rail is plastic, not aluminum. As such, it is not as effective as an aluminum rail and will have increased rate of equipment loss due to this and recoil impulse.
I have a kydex cheek piece that fits over the stock which has Velcro on it for an Esstac shotgun card. The card can be pulled off when empty and replaced with another.
My other kydex cheek piece has that and a 3/16" circular recoil pad on it. They can be popped off and replaced easily.
Maintenance (IOM):
As stated, -10 Level Maintenance is practically nonexistent unless you need to replace issue parts with parts that available aftermarket.
No spare parts commercially available, no Armorer Courses, no Armorer Support. Weapon systems must be sent back to Kel-Tec for repair.
SPECIALTY ROLES:
In addition to ballistic breaching, I believe the KSG-12 has merit in the role of Less Lethal.
Every time I watched footage of Ferguson PD responding to the riots I wished those studs let loose with KSG-12's loaded with Less Lethal rounds with interlocking sectors of fire. I would pay good money to see that converging effect on a crowd.
I'll publish photos of my current iteration after my work contract is complete (I have an article about it in the works but can't publish due to terms) - but that'll likely be awhile.
I'll probably buy another just to have a spare weapon system on hand.
Bronson that is a fantastic post; great user insight into both the positives and the negatives of the system! For a duty weapon I see many of the negatives turning into issues that prevent the gun from being adopted but from the perspective of an individual that wont' be using it in any professional capacity I see many great benefits that no other shotgun addresses quite so well.
I'm sure the issues with lack of Armorer support could be resolved but not seeing that be planned in the near future is an interesting business decision (or lack thereof) on Kel Tec's part. I for some reason have a love of shotguns and this little number has been calling my name for a while; the pros you listed outweigh the cons for my personal needs and I may just need to pony up the cash to try one out.
I'm sure the issues with lack of Armorer support could be resolved but not seeing that be planned in the near future is an interesting business decision (or lack thereof) on Kel Tec's part. I for some reason have a love of shotguns and this little number has been calling my name for a while; the pros you listed outweigh the cons for my personal needs and I may just need to pony up the cash to try one out.
Bronson
Fury
Kel-Tec used to have a KSG-12 Armorer Course for licensed retailers of the weapon system several years back, so I know the POI is out there. I guess the juice just wasn't worth the squeeze.
I need to reach out to them again soon, I'll post what I find in that regard.
There's also variances between KSG-12 iterations - they have been improved upon since first inception.
It's an interesting platform and one I always enjoy shooting. If you do end up with one I reckon your experiences will be similar.
One thing I forgot to mention - the Mesa Tactical Rail sits a little higher than the original rail system so there will be a bit of increased height over bore.
I need to reach out to them again soon, I'll post what I find in that regard.
There's also variances between KSG-12 iterations - they have been improved upon since first inception.
It's an interesting platform and one I always enjoy shooting. If you do end up with one I reckon your experiences will be similar.
One thing I forgot to mention - the Mesa Tactical Rail sits a little higher than the original rail system so there will be a bit of increased height over bore.
Bronson
Fury
Some thoughts on Force Mod:
Replacements Rails have two options: Mesa Tactical or Hi-Tech Customs. The Mesa Tactical is flared out to the sides for smaller side Picatinny attachments - this makes mounting some combinations (such as a CQBL-1, Unity Tactical CQBL-1 Rail Mount, and Scout Light) impossible. However, it is a more secure side rail attachment method although the rail sections are smaller.
The Hi-Tech has an extended version which is just one long section of Picatiiny rail. For side attachments they make dedicated side rails that hinge off the sling attachment points. They are larger compared to the Mesa, but at the cost of taking up those slots and not as secure.
Hi-Tech also makes an aluminum lower rail that bolts on to the existing bottom rail - if you are mounting anything to that this upgrade should be mandatory.
While short stroking is an end user problem and should be corrected via a software solution, adding gripstops to the bottom rail is also a viable hardware solution. If you add one front and one behind - it helps on stroking as well as Push/Pull when shooting.
Hope this helps. I'll be taking a couple shotgun classes in the next few weeks and will update accordingly. By then my work contract will also have expired and I can host pictures of my setup.
Replacements Rails have two options: Mesa Tactical or Hi-Tech Customs. The Mesa Tactical is flared out to the sides for smaller side Picatinny attachments - this makes mounting some combinations (such as a CQBL-1, Unity Tactical CQBL-1 Rail Mount, and Scout Light) impossible. However, it is a more secure side rail attachment method although the rail sections are smaller.
The Hi-Tech has an extended version which is just one long section of Picatiiny rail. For side attachments they make dedicated side rails that hinge off the sling attachment points. They are larger compared to the Mesa, but at the cost of taking up those slots and not as secure.
Hi-Tech also makes an aluminum lower rail that bolts on to the existing bottom rail - if you are mounting anything to that this upgrade should be mandatory.
While short stroking is an end user problem and should be corrected via a software solution, adding gripstops to the bottom rail is also a viable hardware solution. If you add one front and one behind - it helps on stroking as well as Push/Pull when shooting.
Hope this helps. I'll be taking a couple shotgun classes in the next few weeks and will update accordingly. By then my work contract will also have expired and I can host pictures of my setup.
Bronson
Fury
My information still stands. I've only had one stoppage, but unfortunately don't have specifics as I wasn't on the gun initially. I have about 2,250 rounds through it now (mostly buckshot and birdshot, breaching rounds - not many slugs.)
It's a weapon with a shorter life cycle, but thus far I have only had the one issue. Everything else for me has been user error, usually in regards to Force Mod. Sample of one, however.
The biggest issue aside from loading, is remedial action malfunction clearing.
A stoppage takes the gun out of the fight temporarily and requires you to pry out the shell, which isn't a repeatable action based upon shell angle and navigating the shell past the action bars. Principle remains the same (navigate shell past action bars), but extraction technique can differ on those factors.
Let me know if you have any specific questions.
It's a weapon with a shorter life cycle, but thus far I have only had the one issue. Everything else for me has been user error, usually in regards to Force Mod. Sample of one, however.
The biggest issue aside from loading, is remedial action malfunction clearing.
A stoppage takes the gun out of the fight temporarily and requires you to pry out the shell, which isn't a repeatable action based upon shell angle and navigating the shell past the action bars. Principle remains the same (navigate shell past action bars), but extraction technique can differ on those factors.
Let me know if you have any specific questions.
Coworker has one for a house gun. He tends to buy weird, odd new guns and not train much. Yeah...
I put about 30 rounds through one approximately a year and a half ago (no idea which iteration it is) and I wasn't aware there was a ton of aftermarket stuff now.
Action was very stiff to work, even though coworker had already put around 400 rounds through it. Feeding it, as noted, was......interesting. I can definitely see fixing a malfunction being a "after the firefight is over" level of suck, not like on an 870, M4, AK, etc. I did not care for the tube switch lever's position or size. An actual Neostead would have been better, I've also handled the UTAS, which design-wise seems to be a better thought out gun, but apparently also suffers from lack of QC and overall material quality.
I put about 30 rounds through one approximately a year and a half ago (no idea which iteration it is) and I wasn't aware there was a ton of aftermarket stuff now.
Action was very stiff to work, even though coworker had already put around 400 rounds through it. Feeding it, as noted, was......interesting. I can definitely see fixing a malfunction being a "after the firefight is over" level of suck, not like on an 870, M4, AK, etc. I did not care for the tube switch lever's position or size. An actual Neostead would have been better, I've also handled the UTAS, which design-wise seems to be a better thought out gun, but apparently also suffers from lack of QC and overall material quality.
Boxerdad214
Newbie
I have had 2 KSGs fail on me in classes. I’m a instructor and teach a shotgun class. I love the design but I literally sold mine after 2 broke right before my eyes. I really wish it was 870 reliable because it’s a slick set up. I personally never had a problem with mine but I started to question it. It has a perfect size and round count it fantastic. I went back to a 870
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