Karambit Discussion

[rudukai13]

Who likes ‘em? Who uses ‘em? Do you EDC one? Fixed blade or folder? Best way to utilize one?

I’ve been a fan ever since I first learned about them a few years back. One is in my EDC every day and my collection of both fixed blades and folders has grown quite substantially;



Left to right; Fox Knives DART XTS, Busse War Boar clone, Ontario Knife Co EOD, Cold Steel Double Agent, CRKT Provoke, Fox Knives 599 TIC, Emerson Super Karambit, Tops Knives CUT 4.0. Bottom is a Fox Knives DART XT trainer.

The DART XTS is my EDC. Although that may soon change with my acquisition of the CRKT Provoke - it is a solidly built, ingenious design for a defensive knife.

Of note, none of these are used as utility blades. They are all purpose-built, designated defensive knives. I use my multi tool for utility purposes

 

[MOT]

Does this count?
I find it makes a decent utility blade and I have used it as a sharpened pry bar and wrench at times and bottle opener of course. I understand that is not it’s intended role in life. With some modifications it carries nicely.

 

[rudukai13]

Does this count?
I find it makes a decent utility blade and I have used it as a sharpened pry bar and wrench at times and bottle opener of course. I understand that is not it’s intended role in life. With some modifications it carries nicely.

I’m not honestly sure if I would consider that a karambit of any sort, or if it would fall into a separate category of ring-handled daggers. Interesting question.

I suppose I’ve always thought of karambits as any defensive blade intended for use in a reverse grip with a curved handle and at least one ring around the index finger, with subsets being “traditional” karambits with a hawksbill blade (both folders and fixed) and “non-traditional,” which would include other blade shapes such as tanto, drop-point, etc. (also both folders and fixed). To be clear this is not meant to be a technical or historical definition, simply how I’ve categorized them personally.

By that definition I would argue your blade is more of a ringed dagger as it lacks the curved handle necessary to qualify as even a non-traditional karambit, at least for me personally. Although with the right edges sharpened I imagine the actual practical use of that type of dagger would be not unlike the use of a karambit with a similar blade shape

 

[rudukai13]

Funny you mention using yours as a bottle opener - I’ve found the Emerson Wave feature on my knives that have it to be quite adept at prying caps off bottles as well!

 

[MOT]

The socp is definitely a dagger just with a ring. As for more traditional karambits I have a couple. None are folders as a personal decision based on my training. No intention to knock your choice, I think you have good taste actually. My (limited) experience is that karambits/ringed blades have niche uses and as anything,pros and cons. I like them but have decided to stop carrying them. In fact I’ve stopped carrying multipul and fixed/defensive blades for the most part. They are fun to train with and offer some unique advantages in terms of combatives. I find they like to bite people more than other blades. A so called karambit master told me once that he actually prefers a straight blade for serious use. Of course I asked why and he said that it’s faster to effect the live target relatively
speaking. I found that rather interesting. As an aside I think the hawkbill style of blade is primarily a utility thing in general.

 

[KCBRUIN]

I've carried an Emerson combat karambit every day since about 2002. I'm on my second one, I broke the tip off my original one a couple years ago trying to pry something open.

 

[rudukai13]

I am certainly aware of some of the drawbacks and hazards regarding karambit-style folders, particularly those with comparatively weaker frame- and liner-lock mechanisms that may not handle the stresses of putting pressure on the spine of the blade during use. Some of my karambits were purchased with no intent of ever carrying/using them, just to collect.

It’s been difficult finding manufacturers that are producing ringed folders with the combination of features I’d like - specifically those with stronger lock types - but that’s started to change in recent years. Particularly with the introduction of the Provoke, I think I’ve found an ideal solution that would be damn near impossible to fail under stress and extremely unlikely to break. It will be replacing the DART in my EDC fairly soon.

Would be nice if CRKT would produce a training version of it as well, but that’s probably unlikely to happen any time soon...

 

[MOT]

Yeah I got tired of having to buy two and grind one into a trainer.
I’m curious about that provoke mechanism. Just like with pistols I find that there is no “perfect” made that I’m aware of. Always in need of modifications/enhancements.

 

[rudukai13]

The thing I like about the Provoke mechanism is that even if the lock were to fail (which from what I’ve seen is extremely unlikely), there’s physically no way possible for the blade to ever pass over your fingers and potentially cut you. In order to get the lock to fail, you’d also have to be putting immense pressure on the blade edge - Pressure on the spine of the blade (as it would be in limb trapping/manipulation) actually would serve to keep the blade in the extended, locked position. In addition, firmly gripping the handle with the blade in the extended/locked position means you’re putting force on the actuator arms in the direction of holding the blade in the extended position (hopefully that makes sense). It really is a genius method of solving a lot of the problems that are inherent in more traditional folding mechanisms for specifically karambit-style knives.

Plus, it’s a really fun fidget toy to flick open when you’re bored...

 

[MOT]

Nifty. I did some looking into it. That is pretty cool. Now if only there were a trainer...

 

[MOT]

Another concern with non fixed blade karambits is also with the twisting motion when changing directions while the blade is inside the target. Folding mechanisms don’t seem to do well with that sort of rotational shear. I hope that makes sense.

 

[rudukai13]

Another concern with non fixed blade karambits is also with the twisting motion when changing directions while the blade is inside the target. Folding mechanisms don’t seem to do well with that sort of rotational shear. I hope that makes sense.

Certainly, but I imagine that rotational torque would be an issue with any folding knife intended or pressed into use for defense, not solely karambit-style folders

 

[MOT]

Certainly, but I imagine that rotational torque would be an issue with any folding knife intended or pressed into use for defense, not solely karambit-style folders

Absolutely. That gets into knowing ones toolset and skill set along with understand limitations of both. This comes up a lot with improvised weapons.

 

[rudukai13]

Nobody else is interested/owns/carries a karambit of any type? I figured they might be a bit more popular

 

[PJ2RESQU2]

I like karambits, have taken some courses/seminars and even own a few--- Strider, Emerson, Half Face and 5.11, but I never carry them.

I look at my karambits along the same line I view my 1911s and Browning Hi-Powers... fun to train with and while I appreciate the art and history, I'd rather carry something else for use when things are for real.

My thoughts after expanding my knife combatives aperture is that I get much more versatility out of a traditional styled knife. FWIW, I usually EDC a simple Emerson, Spyderco or Benchmade folder. If things are sporty I'll wear a small fixed blade.

I hope this helps!

 

[Gypsy EDC]

I stopped even occasionally carrying mine after taking an edged weapons class and having the instructor demonstrate how much damage leverage can be transmitted to the index finger. I do however love hooked blades and carry many different pikals

 

[rudukai13]

I stopped even occasionally carrying mine after taking an edged weapons class and having the instructor demonstrate how much damage leverage can be transmitted to the index finger. I do however love hooked blades and carry many different pikals

Could you expand on your comment regarding potential damage from leverage?

I’ve long understood ring-handled knives of any kind have the potential to cause injury if the right circumstances occur. Personally I made the judgment that the benefits outweigh the potential risks, but that’s a calculation everyone has to make for themselves

 

[rudukai13]

Something worth noting, I’ve been doing a lot more reading/watching Craig Douglas and more generally interested in Pikal/reverse-grip-edge-in knife utilization. The movements, mechanical advantage, and ease of use all really make sense to me and seem like it would be an option worth pursuing.

I was reading up on Pikal knives one night, going back and forth between pictures of Clinch Picks and various karambits, and then an idea struck; How would you design a knife that combines all of my favorite things about karambits (curved, ergonomic handle with an index finger ring, proclivity for slashing and trapping/manipulation) with the gross motor skill, shearing/ripping capabilities of a Pikal/Clinch Pick?

A fixed blade with a karambit-style curved/ringed handle, mated to a relatively small double-edged Persian dagger blade shape would do the trick. For the life of me though, I can’t seem to find one being made by anyone...

 

[rudukai13]

Basically, what I’d like to find to add to my collection is this but with a second sharpened edge on the spine;



How difficult would it be to get that done to the knife aftermarket?

 

[Gypsy EDC]

Could you expand on your comment regarding potential damage from leverage?

I’ve long understood ring-handled knives of any kind have the potential to cause injury if the right circumstances occur. Personally I made the judgment that the benefits outweigh the potential risks, but that’s a calculation everyone has to make for themselves

I carry a knife as a secondary weapon, likely 99 times out of 100 my goal would be to transition from knife to pistol ASAP. Any lateral force applied to the blade of a karambit is going to be multiplied and directed at the MCP of your index finger (an important joint when it comes to pulling a trigger). You can get an idea of what could happen using an appropriate trainer. It's a risk may not be an exceptionally high one but one easily avoided with 0-minimal downside