Is there an appropriate way to tell a professional that they are being unsafe?

#1
Unfortunately this sort of thing has occurred multiple times in my experience.
At my local range I met some dudes that are in the industry as firearms trainers and security consultants. Wearing badges too.
I jumped in with them doing drills.
Nice people, but their gun handling was scary. Empty chamber carry, really fast reholstering hot glocks, forgetting to disengage the safety on their ARs before shooting(every time), no knowledge of height over bore holds at 7 yards. Weapon transitions with two hot guns. Flagging themselves while holstering.
Things like that.
These things hurt to see.
It seemed to me that they have only gotten training from a specific source.
These guys have a business and are offering classes and so on.
Is there any appropriate way for me, as a non professional/regular dude, call them out in a positive way?
Some may say I’m out of line here.
I appreciate any feedback
 
#3
I say tactfully bring it all up, explain it, discuss it, and don't train with them if they won't change. If you don't have experience that in their minds gives you the requisite authority to discuss it, appeal to higher authority. Give them resources. But ultimately you can't make the horse drink. I'm an LE instructor and I deal with this stuff all the time. Serpa holsters, incorrect placement of accessories on rifles, too many accessories, inferior, nonduty grade equipment, etc etc. Manner of approach is everything. Like just about everything else in life.
 
#4
And no you are not out of line. At all. It is 2020. There is no reason for "professionals" to be doing all the things you described at this point in history. We are known by the company we keep, and bad habits are easy to aquire when you're surrounded by them. Again, do not hesitate to disassociate (at least from all things range/firearms related) from that crew if they won't listen to reason.
 
#5
If these idiots are so far down the path that they hung out a shingle, are taking people’s money, and have probably self-identified as “experts”, I’d say as Wil said... “Walk on”. Nothing you are gonna’ say, and I believe you are 100% right, will fail to do anything but fall on deaf ears.

Scary that people like this are out there, teaching people who know no better.

I’m really curious what you’ll do, and how it plays out. I’ll be tickled if the light goes on for these guys, but I’d bet against it.

Barry
 
#6
Thanks Gents.
I’m sure I’ll run into these dudes again. They’ve invited me to shoot with them anytime.
They seem to be having a good time mindlessly practicing. I’ll see what they think of mindful practice if I can.
I will update probably next weekend.
 

PM07

Moderator
Moderator
#7
"industry as firearms trainers and security consultants. Wearing badges too"

What kind of badges? Are these dude LE or Security? If you see unsafe actions and don't want to be involved, I would walk away. if you want to get involved, push them towards some valid quality training, modcasts or other sources. It can be done in a non confrontational way. Ask them why they do what they do, such as the empty chamber carrying.If they cannot articulate the 'whys' on specific techniques, then I would just walk away and not train with them.

Also, if you re going to try to make suggestions, make sure you have the knowledge base to make those suggestions.
 
#9
It's unfortunate but people like that are all too prevalent and out there. Even in circles that most on the "outside" would deem squared away. I'm seen some cringy shit taught and done by LE instructors who also worshiped anything Israeli. Anyone can call themselves an instructor or security consultant. Very few have the background and credentials to be good at it.

There's two routes you could go with it.

1.) Ignore and move on, particularly if they are being unsafe. If you're the one being flagged, absolutely say something. I certainly do. Me and my family aren't paying the price because someone wanted to be a dipshit and practice things they saw on youtube without context. People like that also tend to be "untrainable". No matter what you tell them, what they have/are doing is always "just as good" or "this is how we've always done it/how I prefer to do it". They also probably don't have any credentials qualifying them to be security consultants and if they do, they were probably taught/trained by people just as cringy as them.

2.) Do what I like to call "passively train". Since they extended the generous offer to shoot with them again, tactfully introduce them to drills that will expose the errors in their ways. They may not see the light immediately or brush off their failures/shortcomings to your face, but if they're like any other competitive alpha male, it will keep them up at night if they fuck something up but see that you can do it just fine. Also have them articulate why they're doing what they doing like why the rush to reholster, why they empty chamber carry etc.

Pros and cons to either approach.
 
#10
Update:
Saw these guys again last weekend.
After greetings and target setup first thing I did was tell them I have a cool gadget to show off. I showed them the striker control device, explained how it works and all the benefits I see in it. They just nodded along. This brought up appendix carry(I do, they don’t). Explained my reasons for switching away from strongside iwb. I mentioned that I’ve taken training classes from Dave Spaulding and Chuck Pressburg, as well as other local guys. They didn’t know who I was talking about.
I also asked why the empty chamber bullshit. They said that’s how we’ve trained and lowest common denominator shooter safety. I shared some other reasons for this outdated technique, and what’s changed since then. Guys seemed to brush all this off and powered on. Nothing confrontational. When dudes teenage boys stepped out to shoot a bit I got to harp the safety stuff with them in front of dude. Things like keeping the finger in register and using the safety on an AR until sights are on target.
I have two steel targets that I brought. One is a 1/3 silhouette and the other a 5 inch circle. Set them up so that they presented a hostage scenario. Small plate just behind and over the shoulder of silhouette. At 12-15 yards ish. The drill is draw from concealment and get one hit on small plate. Timed. They both were willing to try. Guy A took 6.5ish seconds to get the gun out and miss, miss, miss, hit. His shirt had snagged on the fixed blade he has horizontally on his back behind the holster. Time to complete was like 11.5 seconds.
Guy B took a little a little less time(ejected a live round in the draw, racking it needlessly) to miss and then hit the no shoot. They both got a couple of attempts and this was after they had “warmed up” with their silly(read: contextless) drills. Guy A never hit the no shoot, guy B hit it on every attempt. They saw each other suck. After they had both shot it and laughed at the results I shot it. Clean single shot in 2.2seconds. One of my teachers said the only measure of skill is skill. Someone else said don’t tell me, show me.
Dudes got to packing up as it was time for them to go. Before he left, guy B started asking me questions like how often do I train, how long am I at the range usually. Everyone left on amicable terms and I’d like to hope that maybe, just maybe I’d been able to help one of them see that there’s a better way to train.
This will probably continue until either I decide that I’m wasting my time or something else changes. I will post updates as it goes along.

Gentlemen, I’d like to thank all of you for tuning in and giving me feedback.
It is greatly appreciated.
 
#11
Update:
Saw these guys again last weekend.
After greetings and target setup first thing I did was tell them I have a cool gadget to show off. I showed them the striker control device, explained how it works and all the benefits I see in it. They just nodded along. This brought up appendix carry(I do, they don’t). Explained my reasons for switching away from strongside iwb. I mentioned that I’ve taken training classes from Dave Spaulding and Chuck Pressburg, as well as other local guys. They didn’t know who I was talking about.
I also asked why the empty chamber bullshit. They said that’s how we’ve trained and lowest common denominator shooter safety. I shared some other reasons for this outdated technique, and what’s changed since then. Guys seemed to brush all this off and powered on. Nothing confrontational. When dudes teenage boys stepped out to shoot a bit I got to harp the safety stuff with them in front of dude. Things like keeping the finger in register and using the safety on an AR until sights are on target.
I have two steel targets that I brought. One is a 1/3 silhouette and the other a 5 inch circle. Set them up so that they presented a hostage scenario. Small plate just behind and over the shoulder of silhouette. At 12-15 yards ish. The drill is draw from concealment and get one hit on small plate. Timed. They both were willing to try. Guy A took 6.5ish seconds to get the gun out and miss, miss, miss, hit. His shirt had snagged on the fixed blade he has horizontally on his back behind the holster. Time to complete was like 11.5 seconds.
Guy B took a little a little less time(ejected a live round in the draw, racking it needlessly) to miss and then hit the no shoot. They both got a couple of attempts and this was after they had “warmed up” with their silly(read: contextless) drills. Guy A never hit the no shoot, guy B hit it on every attempt. They saw each other suck. After they had both shot it and laughed at the results I shot it. Clean single shot in 2.2seconds. One of my teachers said the only measure of skill is skill. Someone else said don’t tell me, show me.
Dudes got to packing up as it was time for them to go. Before he left, guy B started asking me questions like how often do I train, how long am I at the range usually. Everyone left on amicable terms and I’d like to hope that maybe, just maybe I’d been able to help one of them see that there’s a better way to train.
This will probably continue until either I decide that I’m wasting my time or something else changes. I will post updates as it goes along.

Gentlemen, I’d like to thank all of you for tuning in and giving me feedback.
It is greatly appreciated.
Good for you man, good for you.
You already put in way more effort than most anybody else would have (myself included) and it sounds like you got some gears turning. Be the change you want to see in the world, right?
 
#12
I echo the above. Would have put cash on that they were gonna' either ignore you, or mansplain as instructors, why you are clearly wrong. Still shocked that these guys shoot that dangerously, and poorly, and are taking people's money and instructing. Boggles the mind.

Still, good on you.