Is there a better measure of 'combat fitness' for a tactical team than this? | Primary & Secondary

Is there a better measure of 'combat fitness' for a tactical team than this?

Discussion in 'Fitness General' started by leozinho, Oct 24, 2017.

  1. leozinho

    leozinho Amateur

    Minimum standards:
    1. Double bodyweight deadlift.
    2. Standing Overhead Press with 75% of bodyweight on the bar.
    3. Chin-ups-12 minimum
    4. 400 meters in 75 seconds or less.

    It's from Mark Rippetoe, and he's talking about soldiers, but I'm scratching my head to come up with a better metric for a LE tactical team. (I'd argue it's a more appropriate for LE than MIL, as Rippetoe's bias against aerobic training shows in the lack of a run or ruck march.)

    It's easily measured, can be trained for, rewards those with lean body mass and high relative strength, and doesn't have anything that's technique driven or requires specific practice (ie kb snatch tests).

  2. Bangout

    Bangout Amateur

    I personally like that a lot. Apparently I'm built to dead lift so I'm partial to that but I think it is a good raw strength movement. Do you have a link of where this came from? Matt Wenning (works with Rangers, SF, Cops, Firemen, Old ladies) has some good information on PT requirements. He also talks a lot about how being stronger prevents injuries, especially load carrying injuries.
  3. Bourneshooter

    Bourneshooter Blue Line Sheepdog Moderator

    So one factor that should be considered is what missions is your team expected to do. Then ensure that your PT test covers those abilities on a physical scale.

    My old team had a standard "SWAT" role of search warrants, barricaded subjects, etc. We also had the rural ops side where longer distance foot movements were a thing. As such we were starting to incorporate that in the PT test (new guys and yearly eval) to ensure all the job tasks were being tested.
  4. leozinho

    leozinho Amateur

    If you could design a PT test for the military what would it consist of and why?

    I think everybody in the military ought to be able to deadlift twice their bodyweight. And that does not represent a powerlifting specialization. For a 165-pound Soldier, a 330-pound deadlift is not a remarkable feat of strength. But it at least ensures that there is a minimum standard. Next, we would have an overhead press test that would be 75% bodyweight. I would not test the squat because there would be too many problems with judging it for compliance with the standard. You have to train the squat, you just don’t test it. I would also test chin-ups and 400-meter sprint. I think a Soldier should be able to do 12 chin-ups and run 400 meters in 75 seconds or less. The additional benefit of having the press, chin-up, and 400 meter run tests is that they do away with the need to do body composition testing, which takes up a lot of time and can be a problem for muscular Soldiers. If Soldiers are too fat they are not going to be able to meet those standards. But if you have a person that would be too fat under the present metrics, but who can still do 12 chin-ups and run a 75-second 400, let him stay! People like this are not hurting anything, because they are physically capable of doing the job. I think you would still need assessments that are mission-specific, but these would be the most basic testing standards, and I think they cover all your bases much better than the current assessments. They are easy to administer and fairly straightforward in terms of both training and application to combat readiness. Of course you give people extra points for crushing the basic standard, but these numbers should be the minimum.

    So that's Rippetoe's words above. I think you could replace 'military' with "law enforcement tactical team" and it makes sense.

    I watched a video of him (and Marty Gallagher) discussing fitness for Special Operations and he underestimates the need for SOF to cover terrain on foot. He seems to think everyone helo's in and runs 100m to the objective.

    Any sensible person would at least add a timed ruck march or a run to the standards above for the military. But that's his strength bias coming through. I wouldn't consider him an expert on fitness needs of the military.

    I think his minimum standards are more appropriate for urban law enforcement, specifically the tactical teams.
  5. leozinho

    leozinho Amateur

    I added 'urban' to my reply above, recognizing that some teams do have a need to cover terrain.


    I'm kinda lean my myself and can pass the deadlift, chins, press standards. I haven't tested the 400m sprint but will when I get a chance. I'm not sure how fast 400m in 75s is. I don't really trust Rippetoe to set a good run standard given his strength bias that I noted above.

    If that's really trucking, it will weed out most of the fat bodies. Of course, the fatter one is, the harder it is to hit the % of bodyweight lift standards.
  6. Grizzly

    Grizzly Regular Member

  7. leozinho

    leozinho Amateur

    Thanks for that. Very interesting.

    That's a more complete assessment, and clearly a lot of thought went into it. One negative is that you need sliding scale based on weight as it favors the big guys. (Rip's standards favor the little guy, as the smaller you are the easier it is to lift a higher % of your bodyweight. But only slightly.)

    It's also perhaps more metcon-ish than necessary for LE (and I herniated a disk just reading about the deadlifts for time.)
  8. Grizzly

    Grizzly Regular Member

    I'd argue that you don't need or want to change anything. You define the level of work that needs to be done to show you are capable of doing the job. After that it doesn't matter what your body weight is. If you can score X on the evaluation you are good to go. The sprinting, 3 mile run and sandbag getups will punish the heavy guys the same way the set weight lifts will punish smaller guys.

    The metcon side is team determined. Some rural call outs around here have involved guys carrying full gear for a few miles up a hill on a dead line. Or you can look at the sandbag getups as a good wind test for an extended fight. Like so much in life there is rarely a "this is the right way all the time for everyone" answer.
  9. Tactical team is too wide a group for one true measure.

    The IDF infantry had a very different test than even armored infantry. Specialization is key here. I have no experience in Police work but running fitness makes a lot of sense from what I have seen than focus on just power.

    IDF infantry

    8 meter rope climb in gear (about 12-15 kg)
    20 pull ups
    5 kilometer run in gear
    1 minute max sit ups – minimum 60
    1 minute max pushups – minimum 60
    1 km buddy carry run - complete

    IDF armored infantry
    12 pull ups
    2 kilometer run in PT gear
    1 minute max sit ups – minimum 30
    1 minute max pushups – minimum 35
    Bourneshooter likes this.
  10. molonedlabia

    molonedlabia Newbie

    Its pretty rad to see Rip ideas getting tossed around a forum again. Not LE, but have you checked out Rob Ordd's Brass Ring Fitness?

    He has been using them since the late 2000s as part of the NSW mentor program. Each FMP simulating unique demands.
    From a purely strength and conditioning perspective Bourne Shooter seems spot on with replicate demands placed upon your team and test those. Works the same way with non tactical athletes, GPP for a base, then SPP for their given tasks. If equipment was not an issue, a 2k row and some sort of farmers carries would be good indicators of ones physical preparedness as well (not stand alone but with other batteries as well).

    Lastly, check out Gym Jones, they have changed quite a lot since inception, but their archives have some great info from Mark on testing and standards.
  11. Dr. Cornwallis

    Dr. Cornwallis Regular Member

    I’m not sure if these are the best standards, but they’re probably the best I’ve seen so far. I think as part of a basic selection or evaluation process, this hits the key high points; and as far as selection goes, you could weed out a lot of people with this. I see A LOT of “fit” people who can’t press 75% of their body weight or dead lift 2x they’re body weight. I also really, really like the logic behind the 400m run.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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