Is .380 a suitable defensive caliber?

[Chuck Haggard]

Sometimes you have to go into an NPE, sometimes you have to dress up, some folks, like my wife and daughter, prefer to not wear man clothes to hide a Glock 19.

One of my examples would be a wedding I went to last year in OKC, Glock 19 as normal for the road trip, snub on my ankle and a .380 in my pocket while I was wearing dress slacks, shirt and tie for the reception and such.

There is a place for these guns. Not my prefered primary, but several female friends, my wife and daughter use them for that, and I am glad they do since they would likely go without a gun otherwise. The modern .380s replace the guns that used to fill this niche, such as Beretta .25s and such, and IMHO that is a good thing.

 

[ScottPM09]

That's a good point for female dress attire and one that wasn't crossing my mind at the time of my post. But I am still of the mind that there are 9mm options out there are only slightly larger (think Glock 43 or Shield) than the average reliable .380. Sure, carrying something is better than nothing, but when it comes to selecting a firearm for protection, I personally avoid the .380 round simply because I feel the size differences is an acceptable tradeoff for a better performing round.

When I got my girlfriend (soon-to-be fiancé) a pistol, I settled on the Colt Defender in 9mm since she loved shooting my 1911s but did not like the .45 ACP round. It is also a comfortable pistol to shoot which makes convincing her to go to the range a thing of ease. It fit her needs and she dresses around the gun. This was easy for her though since she has a lot of hippie looking clothing that conceals a belt mounted gun better than any of my polos do on me. When she has limited options on dress attire, as a LAST resort, she uses a small pocket purse during dress up events. She also discovered this weird bag/purse/leg rig that straps to her body and allows her to conceal the sizeable Defender. I think its called a koala bag or something similar. If you don't mind me asking, where do most of your lady friends/family carry theirs?

 

[Chuck Haggard]

IWB, pocket, or bra holster

Personally, I think on the body with a small gun beats off body carry with a bigger gun, which is a trade-off many women make. One of the female officers on my old job had a dude snatch her purse inside a store, she ended up in a ground fight with the guy trying to get the purse back since her gat was in the purse as well, she managed to get the purse back and the gun was secure, but it was ugly and had every potential for the bad guy to end up with her gun.

 

[ScottPM09]

Yeah, that's always our primary concern with the purse carry. That's why it is a last resort type of thing only if on the body is not conceivable (ie: dinner dress). The bra holster is definitely another option and I believe that make one for a compact 1911 and other small framed guns. Not sure how the comfort would be, but it might be worth a try for my lady. But, as you said, if it is too much of an issue, most simply wont carry it anyways.

 

[Chuck Haggard]

Ref efficacy of the .380 for personal defense (vs duty carry, which means we need to be able to get into cars, etc....); this case involved a .380, bad guy hit center and neck, dead before EMS arrived.
http://www.11alive.com/story/news/crime/2015/05/07/lithonia-suspect-dead-theft/70955622/

Optimal caliber? No, but to steal a quote/idea from Uncle Pat, I have seen too many people turned into canoes for me to dismiss the .380 as an option for the niche it fills.

 

[Sherlockanubis]

After listening to the Terminal Ballistics Modcast for probably the 6th time I am looking for some of the hard data that was discussed during the .380 ACP/ Penetration part of the modcast. Looking specifically for cases or approved lists of ammunition that was referenced where .380 FMJ was the preferred choice over the JHP variants in terms of reliability and penetration. There are those around me at my workplace that believe that .380 ball will shoot through like an extremely hot pistol or rifle FMJ round. Any help or resources would be appreciated.

I have looked for approved department ammo and equipment lists but they are very limited in at least what i can find.

Thanks in advance

 

[Matt Landfair]

IIRC fmj is preferred in order to reach an optimal penetration that jhp cant reach.

 

[Arete]

The ballistic gel test results that I have access to shows .380 ball penetrates about 16" in bare gel and also with heavy clothing. None of the .380 JHPs do this.

Hence, we issue .380 ball to our folks.

 

[Chuck Haggard]

The last I checked, LAPD was issuing the Lawman 90gr FMJ as their "duty" and practice load.

They had originally tested Critical defense, but didn't find that 100% reliable in all of their approved .380 off-duty?BUGs. The reports I have so far is that it's working out fine.

The vast majority of street shootings I've worked where .380 was used involved ball ammo. On solid torso shots it tends to penetrate to the far side and lodge under the skin.

 

[Sherlockanubis]

I know that, but there are those around me that think I'm spouting crazy talk just looking for some of the hard data to back up the common sense that I'm saying that they won't listen to.

For some of the professionals in the group that have dealt with ballistic gel testing are the luckygunnerlabs.com tests valid? At least in terms of gel makeup pretty sure they didn't do the barrier blind test though.

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[Chuck Haggard]

The Lucky Gunner effort is pretty valid. It's Clear Gel, which is not exactly the same as FBI spec gel, but it's pretty close in most of my testing.

FWIW, in the old FBI original test data they had tests that were done on various .380 rounds, including FMJs.

IMHO the .380 isn't a duty round, or even close, performance against barriers other than heavy clothing is poor.

Edited to add, I fucked up on how I worded the Clear Gel statement, clarified that.

 

[Ryan St.Jean]

.380 is a viable defensive caliber. With ball ammo it penetrates sufficiently. In really small guns (Ruger LCP, etc all) it is in a whole different size class than the G43/ etc all. As such it offers a gun you can carry when other, larger guns, aren't an option. I wouldn't recommend an LCP, etc all for your only pistol but a gun you can legitimately always carry is pretty useful to have in the battery.

 

[Sherlockanubis]

Ok awsome. Thank you all for reviving an older thread. I work in firearms sales and a range and I'm trying to get all of the other associates putting out the correct & same info but difficult.

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[DocGKR]

"are the luckygunnerlabs.com tests valid"

No.

 

[Chuck Haggard]

Doc,

I know the issues with Clear Gel vs FBI spec gelatin. Looking at the Lucky Gunner tests I think my biggest concern is with their choice of clothing barrier.

I'm very curious what your thoughts are.

 

[Barry B]

2nd revive here of this thread here.

I’m not an expert by any means. Read that again. FNG for all intents. I have a 1st generation Ruger LCP. I rarely ever carry it because I can accommodate my G43X or G19. But what I have read and heard causes me to say two things relative to the question that started this thread.

1 - I fully agree .380 > nothing.
2 - The Jared Reston shootout indicates .380 is definitely not the caliber you want.

Regards,
Barry

 

[AZ_Rifleman]

Some things here:

1 Some topics need to stay gone as it brings out all kinds of noise when the reality is that we just need the signal. In other words carry what you're comfortable with and not what others think that you should do. Just use your own due diligence to what gun or what caliber, or hw many rounds.

2. First search from the Jared Reston shootout showed a writer with a 45 ACP derangement. Nothing was said on what round 45 ACP was (possibly cherry picked data because narratives need to always be biased when a bias is already present), so going to just assume that it was ball which makes my point here; Ball in all handgun calibers suck at killing things, a 9 FMJ would have not worked either.

3. Deep concealment or convivence when I just want to check my mail and not take five minutes or more to just drop a .380 in my pocket, matters more to me than caliber, capacity etc. I carry for me not for others.

4. In a pinch .380 is exactly the caliber I want (and I don't need to expand on the homework that was done choosing the munitions for it). My needs > your feelings/MYOB.

 

[AZ_Rifleman]

Also, shot placement with the right ammunition and training is more important to me than capacity, caliber, draw position. I carry appendix with a G43 every dang day. Walking the dog or just going outside for mail or a chore, needing deep concealment, I carry a Mustang.

Do your own risk assessment and handle it accordingly.

 

[MPer15]

2nd revive here of this thread here.

I’m not an expert by any means. Read that again. FNG for all intents. I have a 1st generation Ruger LCP. I rarely ever carry it because I can accommodate my G43X or G19. But what I have read and heard causes me to say two things relative to the question that started this thread.

1 - I fully agree .380 > nothing.
2 - The Jared Reston shootout indicates .380 is definitely not the caliber you want.

Regards,
Barry

I am also not any kind of expert but I think the key takeaway to the Jared Reston shooting is wear your vest on patrol and get your ass in shape.

As far as .380 I forget who said it but in the mouse gun modcast one of the panelists made a comment along the lines of "I've investigated way too many murders with .32s and .380s to ever think they aren't effective."

 

[Arete]

27+ yrs in LE/MIL and have seen lots of people killed, and also not killed, but plenty of them killed by .22 .25. 32, .380, .38. Not a single one of them using JHPs.

Have also seen plenty of people killed, and also not killed, by 9, .40, and .45. FMJ and JHP.

Rule 1 of gunfighting. Have a gun.

Rule 2 - carry as much gun as you can, within reason.

Having said that, there are times that a .380 or similar will be your "Rule 1 gun". A reliable .380 with FMJ is far, far better than nothing at all, but not as good for fighting as a G19.

As Pat would say, TANSTAAFL.