Intermediate options.

[Matt Landfair]

Between firearms and a harsh word are many different options.

Spray, electronic devices, batons, etc - which have you chosen and why?

Don't understand why? We can discuss that too.

 

[MPer15]

I carry a pom oc spray everywhere. I like that oc gives some standoff and the effect is more immediate than trying to get pain compliance with something like a baton. Plus it doesn't do any lasting damage to the other person so your legal exposure is minimal.

I haven't really looked into tazers to be honest so can't speak to those.

 

[pointblank4445]

Very timely given the considerations brought up again from "Defining your Mission" and covered in other podcasts like "Realistic Carry Considerations".

Admittedly, I was once VERY pro-baton/anti-OC. Taser is STILL not an option at our agency (all the $ had to go to bodycams). I think a lot of my stance stemmed from accounts of poor OC deployment into conflicts with individuals already amped up (or with drugs in their system) and in a fight and ultimately affecting others than the target. Compound that with the legal obligation to de-con and clean-up, several exposures to CN, CS, OC and the like, and witnessing a variety of responses and deployment considerations, it became an afterthought.

A few years ago, we had an officer become World Star famous in a video that ended with him lawfully using his baton on a combative suspect (suspect sucker-punched the responding ofc. upon initial contact). The officer's form was textbook and he targeted the suspect's thigh area (everything on the up and up)...but this had little effect on the suspect. Ultimately, the suspect was cornered and taken into custody by 4-5 officers. Despite its lack of effect, the baton strikes garnered a fair amount of backlash from the community and there was a fair amount of backlash given the totality of the events.
In short, the OPTICS of the baton deployment did not look good to a layman...and there were no less than 3 different videos of the event that people could cherry pick from to further whatever agenda they wanted.


Today, I have re-considered my stance on OC in light of current events and optics. It makes good sense to me to "soften-up" someone exhibiting aggression or pre-fight indicators. I really can't put it in any better context than Darryl or Chuck did in the aforementioned Mission podcast.

 

[Royroy]

I carry a taser. I think pointblank4445 hit it on the head with how bad the media is going to make you look. I can carry taser and oc, and I have both. My OC rides in the duty bag. If I’m on my way to a call where I think I may need it I can just throw it in a cargo pocket. Fortunately I haven’t had to use it with all the necessary decon of people, cars, and equipment. I also carry a modlite OKW handheld that may not make an aggressive person compliant, but at night they are going to be blind for a couple of seconds while I move or create time to think.

 

[pointblank4445]

I also carry a modlite OKW handheld that may not make an aggressive person compliant, but at night they are going to be blind for a couple of seconds while I move or create time to think.

As much as I like the utility of the Surefire Stiletto as a daily-carry, I do like that about my small OKW that I carry more now for this option and bust out the phone if smaller utility light is needed.

On the subject of daily "intermediate" options, I'm gonna say: "Shoes" as a consideration. With "running the fuck away" and hand-to-hand combatives being considerations in a (or at least my) personal/off-duty system between words and guns, it ranks pretty high on my list. Compromising a swift egress or severely dampening a well-delivered size-12 to the bread basket is a big no-go. So, every time I hear guys (and on occasion, rather smugly) mention "carrying a J-frame in board shorts", I always wonder to myself: "I hope they aren't doing this while rocking flip-flops". I know Pat Mac has talked about similar concepts in his Sentinel book (been a while since I've read it so I won't attempt to paraphrase).

I suppose that could be considered as an extension of one's physicality/age/ability/mobility as a consideration. As Darryl has also mentioned multiple times, differences in these qualities may add or detract to one's reliance on other intermediate options.

 

[Oak City Tactics]

Carried OC in the drivers door pocket for years. I had a roommate that did it too. He had a guy approach his drivers window in a road rage incident while trapped at a stop light. Everything was just the other guy yelling until he struck the window. My roommate sprayed the guy and the light turned and traffic moved. He left him standing there rubbing his eyes and screaming. That was always an enjoyable story for him to tell. I don't carry it EDC but on occasion when it seems like a potential option, its there easy to slip into the pocket as you exit. Smaller than a "truck gun" but probably more practical. I've taken to leaving an extra ASP in there as well for the same reasons. I am precluded by policy from taking a taser off duty so its out of the question but that at least offers me two other options.

 

[Brock01]

Jiu Jitsu typically 2-4x a week. Currently stationed overseas so carry options are extremely limited. Verbal judo and the bjj are my big 2 for the next few years.

 

[jnc36rcpd]

The current retirement job issues an ASP baton and Sabre Red gel to special police officers. I don't have tremendous confidence in either. Sabre's own training doctrine specifies that gel is an extremely target specific product.
Off duty, I carry POM OC on my person and a can of Sabre Red cone-shaped spray in the car, That I have tremendous confidence in.
OC doesn't work on everyone and not 199% of the time, but it is extremely effective on most people most of the time. Training and practice are important (despite the thinking of my current organization).

 

[TheLion70x7]

Jiu Jitsu, only a beginner on that area, but it's another tool in a tool box. Carry is great, which I and my wife both do, but it's not always practical / possible depending on location. One thing I've become more acutely aware of over the years is just being alert, sounds like such a basic thing, but if you can avoid or detect danger before it happens upon you, your way better off than the guy walking down the street with a cell phone 12 inches from his face.

 

[Smith]

My #1 change so far has been to immediately press the "lock doors" button after getting in the car, before fuzzing around with my phone or the car settings.

 

[TheLion70x7]

Ditto on that, I started doing that a while back after I first attended a CCL class and a few entry level marksmanship classes for handgun. I got the opportunity to hear from active duty LE's (some with over 20+ years experience and I think all but one with prior military service with actual deployments). It's amazing how just some simple things like that can make a difference, if you think about it, it's all about time.

Barriers, distance, situational awareness etc. all buy you time to go through the OODA loop. It really is a thinking man's game.

 

[Barry B]

My go to with a gun or no gun, is POM OC spray - carry it everywhere. I feel I was snoozing on this reasonable option far too long. Had carried folders. Still a deadly weapon, and in a fight, once it starts you aren’t unfolding a folder I don’t think. Carried a 12” expandable baton. Gives a tad more standoff, but can be argued that it is a deadly weapon even if you avoid head/neck.

I was taking a MAG20 and asked Massad Ayoob about his opinion of the expandable baton vs the knife. The primary takeaway was the knife is flat out deadly force, and being close to and carving someone up doesn’t play well in court. If used correctly it may be argued the expandable baton is not deadly force. My recollection of our brief discussion.

I think OC spray is a good option to stop a fight before it starts (potentially), and hopefully nobody gets punched (me or them). Getting a face full of OC is probably far safer for the assailant than a punch, an expandable baton, or knife - by a large margin.

Barry

 

[Barry B]

Damn…. Also should have said I was taking combatives before COVID and recently a lower back injury has negated that for the time being. Verbal jiu-jitsu is also good, and demeanor. As the smart folks say “best fight is the one you were never in”.

Barry