Integrated White light/Green Visible laser unit.

[Longeye]

There is a evolving discussion going over at Lightfighter about this.

I see a need for an integrated White light/Green Visible laser unit for both LE patrol and citizen use. The background is that the VIS laser has a lot of uses- just like the white light on a carbine. The problem is that there are few that are viable for hard duty use, and fewer still that are easily matched up with a white light in terms of switchability and ergonomics.

There are dedicated IR units that have IR flood capabilities as well as IR/VIS laser modules. The trouble with these for the aforementioned user groups is two fold:
-The IR side is worthless without NODS and it takes several thousand dollars to get properly equipped with quality NOD's.
-The housing still does not play well with white lights.

For the dedicated user, a mix and match solution can sometimes be found at the expense of several more hundred dollars.

This still leaves the user with unused capability that is paid for.

The question: Is there interest in a high quality white light combined with a VIS laser in one unit for use on a carbine?

Some things to narrow this up:
White light would be 500-1000 lumens.
Batteries would be CR-123A.
Laser would be green.
Switching would likely be at the 12 o'clock.

Variables:
QD or semi-permanent mount?
Should the laser emit at true 12 o'clock or be offset enough to clear a fixed A2 front sight base?

What would you pay for this ideal unit?

 

[Grayman]

Longeye,

Not to rain on your parade but sounds a little like an X400U...

I don't think I would pay more than what the X400 runs. Personally I think you're on to something here. Any chance our buddy AdamS is involved.

 

[Longeye]

No rain at all. Thanks for the feed back.

The X400U is a good option, but suffers from a bulkier than needed profile. Some of the goals here are a svelte and minimalist design. It is a good pistol laser but maybe not as useful on a carbine. The Unity shroud deals with one of the problems that attend carbine use, but...

Additionally, and maybe more importantly, the X400U- no matter how mounted- has greatly excessive bore offset or else obstructs the FOV of the primary RDS.

AdamS. and I hope to correct that with our efforts.

 

[AresGear_Jake]

Have you tried an X400 on a Mossie mount? That should drop the laser right down below the front sight.


- Jake

 

[Default.mp3]

X400U-GN with a tape switch? And if you're running the tape switch, perhaps drop it to 0600 instead of 1200?

The Steiner SBAL-PL is another possible contender, switchology's pretty shit for long gun, though.

If you could snag one of them Steiner Y-cables, you could possibly hook up the AR2A with a Steiner Battlelight and run both off the same switch. With the Unity Tactical TAPS, perhaps an AR2A with a Surefire? The AR2A has a neat factory mounting system available that bolts directly onto a fixed AR sight.

 

[Longeye]

Have you tried an X400 on a Mossie mount? That should drop the laser right down below the front sight.


- Jake

I have a Mossie, and a CMR 206 laser is coming. I am a little concerned about holding a zero with that solution. Might work though.

 

[Longeye]

X400U-GN with a tape switch? And if you're running the tape switch, perhaps drop it to 0600 instead of 1200?

The Steiner SBAL-PL is another possible contender, switchology's pretty shit for long gun, though.

If you could snag one of them Steiner Y-cables, you could possibly hook up the AR2A with a Steiner Battlelight and run both off the same switch. With the Unity Tactical TAPS, perhaps an AR2A with a Surefire? The AR2A has a neat factory mounting system available that bolts directly onto a fixed AR sight.

Mounting a laser at 0600 complicates offset and PBR effects. It is bad enough on a handgun. The capabilities of a rifle make it worse.

The AR2A has made me scratch my chin before. It might be a solution.

 

[Default.mp3]

Mounting a laser at 0600 complicates offset and PBR effects. It is bad enough on a handgun. The capabilities of a rifle make it worse.

Maybe I'm over-simplifying, but why would a 0600 mount complicate offset compared to a 1200 mount? Wouldn't it just be the reverse, holding low instead of holding high? Or are you simply referring to the massive delta in the laser emitter versus the bore on the X400 series?

As for PBR, I assume that refers to point blank range?

Oh, and if you can't get the Steiner Y cable, perhaps just place the AR2A tape over a Surefire tape? Secure one on top of the other using Velcro or Ranger bands or something? Dunno, seems like a stupid idea that just might work.

 

[Matt Landfair]

On the FB groups we have covered the badside of 6 oclock mounting.

 

[Longeye]

Maybe I'm over-simplifying, but why would a 0600 mount complicate offset compared to a 1200 mount? Wouldn't it just be the reverse, holding low instead of holding high? Or are you simply referring to the massive delta in the laser emitter versus the bore on the X400 series?



As for PBR, I assume that refers to point blank range? YES

Oh, and if you can't get the Steiner Y cable, perhaps just place the AR2A tape over a Surefire tape? Secure one on top of the other using Velcro or Ranger bands or something? Dunno, seems like a stupid idea that just might work.

0600 mounting?
It is the reverse, among other things.
-Consider that you may be using the laser for a BUIS equivalent.
-Consider that you may be using the laser as a primary sight.
Do you really want two very divergent mechanical sight offsets on the same weapon system? Especially when the two sighting systems will be used interchangeably on dynamic events?

-Consider that you may obstruct the laser with a vehicle hood or other obstructions.

The delta you refer to is just one more problem.

PBR= Point Blank Range


Switchology?

The concept is for something that is adequate for seamless duty use. The root of the whole project is to get away from adhoc, haphazard solutions. This should be a single purchase/ single mount solution for the guy or agency that needs this capability. It needs to stand up to cruiser racks, being tossed around on scenes, being co-mingled on an armorers table, having binocular straps hung over the barrel in the cruiser rack, getting stuffed in a trunk with 127 other pieces of critical gear, etc. Cables spook me in that setting. Sort of secured overlapping switched cables spook me worse.

This also has to be easily intuitive to use. That means switch pressure and location has to be consistent. We can't get that from velcro or ranger bands, especially on stacked switches.

 

[Default.mp3]

0600 mounting?
It is the reverse, among other things.
-Consider that you may be using the laser for a BUIS equivalent.
-Consider that you may be using the laser as a primary sight.
Do you really want two very divergent mechanical sight offsets on the same weapon system? Especially when the two sighting systems will be used interchangeably on dynamic events?

-Consider that you may obstruct the laser with a vehicle hood or other obstructions.

Interesting considerations. Being that I am primarily a pistol guy, I didn't really think about how different manipulations and sight alignment would be compared to using a long-gun. I've run into all of those issues as mentioned, but only on a pistol, which obviously relegates me to a 0600 mounting position, but also much easier to reposition the weapon in order to overcome some of the issues you mentioned. Victim of my own frame-of-reference and ignorance, I guess.

As for the switchology, I totally forgot about the whole issued-for-duty use caveat, so my bad.

 

[adam_s]

X400U-GN with a tape switch? And if you're running the tape switch, perhaps drop it to 0600 instead of 1200?

The Steiner SBAL-PL is another possible contender, switchology's pretty shit for long gun, though.

If you could snag one of them Steiner Y-cables, you could possibly hook up the AR2A with a Steiner Battlelight and run both off the same switch. With the Unity Tactical TAPS, perhaps an AR2A with a Surefire? The AR2A has a neat factory mounting system available that bolts directly onto a fixed AR sight.

One thing about the AR2A is that there is not a Green version at the present (that I see listed), which is part of what we are driving for with this.

I've been discussing the idea some with LongEye, and have a few ideas of my own that would likely fall into the lower cost side of things-but I still have to spend some time in the workshop modeling them up.

 

[Default.mp3]

One thing about the AR2A is that there is not a Green version at the present (that I see listed), which is part of what we are driving for with this.

You're right, I had the AR2A mixed up with the OTAL-A; the OTAL-A obviously doesn't mount to the FSB, but it does have enough offset to clear it.

 

[Mikey Strauss]

How about Surefires XVL2 that is supposed to come out this year?

http://www.breachbangclear.com/surefire-flashlight-porn-from-shot-show/

 

[Longeye]

How about Surefires XVL2 that is supposed to come out this year?

http://www.breachbangclear.com/surefire-flashlight-porn-from-shot-show/

It is a step. But it is vaporware until it is in your hands. And, at present, the white light is only 150 lumens.

You are paying for IR capability that many do not need, nor are likely to access, but at the high cost of only having 150 lumens available for most tasks. Fighting with NVG and white light is not an either/or proposition. SF clearly recognizes this, but has not yet made the tech jump to break the 150L barrier with the switch head. I have used the Vampire a fair amount and it's a good product within it's limitations.

It looks like the XVL2 may have clearance problems when mounted at 1200 behind an A2 FSB.

The pistol lights are improving, but most lack the throw that a carbine can make the most use of.

 

[adam_s]

You're right, I had the AR2A mixed up with the OTAL-A; the OTAL-A obviously doesn't mount to the FSB, but it does have enough offset to clear it.

The unfortunate thing with the OTAL is that when you price one with the green laser, they all of a sudden turn out to be the same price as a DBAL-I3 or the like. Which gets back to the cost being a killer.

 

[adam_s]

How about Surefires XVL2 that is supposed to come out this year?

http://www.breachbangclear.com/surefire-flashlight-porn-from-shot-show/

Now, if they took the X400U, and rearranged it to that layout, Surefire would be making long strides to get a good design out there. It may not work perfectly for clearing an FSB when mounted at 1200, but, it's a better starting point than an X400U when it comes to Height-Over-Bore, etc.

 

[RangerRed]

I think a visible only XVL2 with a 500L light and green laser would certainly be a better option than the X400U. I would prefer SF to make a dedicated long gun light/laser combo with a similar layout of the XVL2 (in line green laser/offset Scout head) that worked off of a Scout light mount, had a clicky switch at the rear and a port for remote switch. This way you can take advantage of the myriad of scout mounts available on the market instead of the X-series plastic rail mount. Again, you run into limitations with end users who have a FSB on their rifles but it allows you to run it at the 12 o'clock on a FF rail and not have to worry about adjusting for offset if it were at the 3 or 9.

 

[SonOfLiberty]

I have a Mossie, and a CMR 206 laser is coming. I am a little concerned about holding a zero with that solution. Might work though.

I am doing this same thing right now with the 205 just to try the concept out on my SBR. I have zero time with a laser on a rifle so it's been interesting. In my eyes it's a different beast from a pistol mounted laser.

 

[Longeye]

Initially, the Mossie mount has excess flex. But I will not discount it completely until I can get some more rounds under it and establish if the flex is repeatable.