Impossible build quality.

NickG

Newbie
Just a heads up, this is my first post. I've been listening to the P&S podcast for quite awhile now and I'm noticing a trend in the subject of the AR-15. From what I've heard, I should really buy a BCM/FN/Hodge/Knight's AR if I want a "duty grade" rifle. I've been buying quality parts for my first AR "build" before I ever started listening to the Modcast. I have yet to assemble the rifle and was planning to bring it to a gunsmith with 33 years of experience to put togeather. Should I sell all the parts and buy a quality rifle instead? I appreciate all of your time and knowledge.
 

PM07

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Nick,
Here is my take. When you assemble your rifle, if something goes wrong who do you send it to for repair? I have assembled some lowers but my uppers are bought assembled from the manufacturer. My old agency I assembled the stripped lowers that we issued for duty but the uppers were factory BCM. That was because we SBR'd those lowers and I had been a AR15 armorer for a while.

Plus for my purposes, if something goes wrong on a duty gun, there is a established company behind it to deal with any issues. That is not only my agencies policy but my personal policy as well.
 

chrisp2493

Amateur
When I was younger I built my first AR from complete scratch. It was really fun and I learned how the basics work. But I knew absolutely nothing about how to do it right. I can’t even remember if I torqued anything important to spec or did any correct staking. I don’t trust that rifle to hold up to any significant torture testing. My 3rd AR was a complete SOLGW rifle and from everything I’ve seen I completely trust it to do anything I want and keep on running. Just the piece of mind behind that was worth it to me. Maybe the next time I build one I’ll actually understand how to do it correctly
 

Frosty_Bear

Regular Member
Theoretically, you could take your proven parts to an armorer and have them build it correctly to spec, but there's 2 sets of variables.
1. Are all of those parts quality? Verified and so forth. Something simple like a bad bolt catch can cause some serious issues.
2. Years are great, but it can also lead to bad practices being ingrained with a "we've always done this" mindset. I don't know who you're referring to, but that's worst case.

It depends IMO, but I'm very interested to see what others think
 

pointblank4445

Established
2 of the biggest problems with the home-brew builds:
- people don't know what they don't know
- Most people sit down with only 1x of every part and not a stock of parts if something isn't quite right. "I'm gonna make it work" mentality is poison. In 15 years, 5-6 armorer schools, dozens of builds I still encounter odd things and even the highest quality parts that don't pair together as they should.

That being said, I like knowing EVERYTHING about my rifle...even down to what the detents are finished/coated in and how the pins are oriented.

Right now...as we speak people are over on HKPro spending $295 on old, used 416 parts kits because people assume they were German space magic parts. At that point, lower parts kits were from a two-bit American vendor.
 

NickG

Newbie
Is there a chance this will be your only AR?


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No sir, I have one are set up like the rifle I shot in the Corps (M16A2 clone) but I have that for nostalgia purposes. It's a Windham lower with a Fulton Armory NM upper. I love shooting a 20 inch AR with irons. I want the next rifle I build or buy to be something I can use for home defense/SHTF/boogaloo BS.
 

NickG

Newbie
2 of the biggest problems with the home-brew builds:
- people don't know what they don't know
- Most people sit down with only 1x of every part and not a stock of parts if something isn't quite right. "I'm gonna make it work" mentality is poison. In 15 years, 5-6 armorer schools, dozens of builds I still encounter odd things and even the highest quality parts that don't pair together as they should.

That being said, I like knowing EVERYTHING about my rifle...even down to what the detents are finished/coated in and how the pins are oriented.

Right now...as we speak people are over on HKPro spending $295 on old, used 416 parts kits because people assume they were German space magic parts. At that point, lower parts kits were from a two-bit American vendor.

I know guy whos has multiple AR armorers courses under his belt that can build my rifle for me. Would it be that bad to give him the parts and let him build it for me? He will not build a rifle that isn't up to duty standards.
 

pointblank4445

Established
I know guy whos has multiple AR armorers courses under his belt that can build my rifle for me. Would it be that bad to give him the parts and let him build it for me? He will not build a rifle that isn't up to duty standards.

Put it this way, I wouldn't let you let me make you a duty rifle. We're all still learning given how fast the products churn out (case in point, I just saw a thread regarding 14.5" barrels w/ intermediate gas systems). I still farm out some tasks (gas block pinning, muzzle device pinning). And even then I know there's risk. Heck, I've been burnt by ADCO and they get recommended all the time. Those fuckers ruined a perfectly good FN barrel and didn't do shit for me about it.

Most (not all) armorer courses are tear-down/build-up of a pre-existing build...and repeat. That's all well and good if you're going to build an M4 or M16 clone to spec. That recipe is pretty cut and dry. There are some other configurations that are pretty well known outside milspec. The manufacturers gotta make their money too so it doesn't hurt for them to put some scare into you. Now if you're going for something a little less standardized it's not hard to stray from the beaten path and wind up with problems. Unless you're committed to learning and understanding the nuances or work in the industry or have a connect, there aren't many courses that can or will really dive into the weeds. There's a big difference between getting things to run and getting things to run at peak efficiency.

Clear as mud?

TL;DR:
- If the guy was going to make you an M4/6920...yeah, he'd probably be OK piecing compete assemblies together
- If you're wanting something like flashy with "optimized" this and "national match" that thrown together...maybe not so much.
 

Wake27

Regular Member
All depends on the guy. Robb Jensen built one of my uppers. Those that know his reputation would probably agree with me that it’s Assembly was likely just as good as any quality factory gun. The problem is just that there’s plenty of guys with a fucking mallet and cleaning may that call themselves gunsmiths and we all know that just because you’ve done something for a long time, it doesn’t mean you’ve done it well. As long as you can verify his work, I wouldn’t overthink it too much. Now if you’re just buying random parts on sale or would never have more than one AR, factory all the way.


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PM07

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Here is my take on having someone manufacture a duty upper. Are they a licensed FFL? Do they have liability insurance? If something goes catastrophic with that rifle because of the construction, who are you going to hold responsible?

Also not doubting your friend, but how do you know that he will build it to a hard use standard? Does he have the necessary tools and knowledge? Does he know what everything is supposed to be torque'd to value wise? What get staked? Etc Did he complete bushmaster armorer or one of Will or Sully's class?

And I say that as a guy that has taken multiple armorers courses , held the certification for several years and is the armorer for my agency. I don't even build my own uppers for fun use, never mind duty use.
 
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Longinvs

Regular Member
Quantified Performance
Answering posts like this open up a lot of opportunity to start insulting other people's capabilities. I don't know any of your friends, they may be supremely qualified. I'm not speaking to them specifically. As a general statement, I will say that gunsmiths are kind of like mechanics. I know some great A&Ps that can keep a jet running top notch and I know some car mechanics that can help squeeze every mile out of your car. Both are mechanics, I would not want one to do the other's job. Something about lanes and stuff. A smith can have decades of experience but it might not be relevant to putting ARs together. And as far as armorer courses, depending on who they took their class from, there might be a fundamental design and function theory missing. It's one thing to replace one factory part with another factory part. It's another thing to take a DD 300 blackout barrel with an LMT bolt, JP adjustable gas block, and BCM receiver extension set and put those together in an Aero receiver set and have them match up and work "flawlessly"(oddly specific, yes). Getting a rifle from someone who puts them together everyday for a living is different than even getting it from someone who professional works on guns in general. I've had the good fortune to have a lot of great discussions with some of the guys from JP, and there is a lot different about a gun put together by someone that is doing it for the 1000th time. They aren't worried about what part is torqued to what, that's a part of the macros of the process, they're focused on the feel of how the small parts drop in and interface with each other. Science to art and what not.
 

Garrett S

Newbie
With the myriad of parts available it's very difficult if not impossible to pull random parts together from various makers and have something that will equal the quality/proven performance of a known good brand as mentioned above.



If your smith has experience building ARs, has proper gauges and tooling - they should be able to put together something that should be usable as long as you are able to run it through its paces to test reliability. Good smiths also guarantee their work - but I'll agree with above comments that for a true duty-grade platform (bare minimum the upper receiver assembly) you should go with a proven builder.



I've built a LOT of ARs in various configurations and my personal projects run well - but if I had to grab one rifle to take with me in a defensive situation it's going to be one of the two that have BCM uppers. My older one has thousands of rounds through it, suppressed and un-suppressed and it has never missed a beat.



For a range toy, 3-GUN or other competitive use rifle, playing around with components can lead to something unique and tailored to your needs. But going with something that is a verified platform used by people that depend on it for work is advisable for serious use IMO. That being said, it's still always a good idea to run your equipment through a validation process to verify it is indeed operating correctly. Grabbing something off the shelf and hoping it's going to work is never a good MO.
 

MahleE13

Newbie
yes

and I would add LMT, Colt, and Noveske to your list.


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Why don’t we first ask OP what parts he purchased, to determine their quality and compatibility. Then, ask him if he’s willing to put in the research, and make the correct phone calls to OEM’s, read threads and watch videos for best practices and techniques to use (such as: torque specs, thread seasoning, loctite, lithium grease-Aeroshell etc.) Give Elon Musk a week, YouTube, and the proper parts & tools to assemble a rifle, and it’ll be better than anything currently fielded by the military...because there’s no “magic” to it...only research and a perfectionist’s attention to detail. What makes the internet so powerful is (in the right hands) a child in the third world can literally speak to Royalty in another country, or a novice like myself that grew up during GWOT can converse with GWOT heroes through P&S and glean knowledge from them, that I might not make the same mistakes they paid for. I’ve observed a case study in human psychology - where people reserve and preserve niche classes of culture, for fear the un-initiated outsiders will dilute the “hard earned” purity of said class. How would you feel if you paid $thousands and decades learning a craft, then YouTube and an 18 year old put you out of work?
 
Just a heads up, this is my first post. I've been listening to the P&S podcast for quite awhile now and I'm noticing a trend in the subject of the AR-15. From what I've heard, I should really buy a BCM/FN/Hodge/Knight's AR if I want a "duty grade" rifle. I've been buying quality parts for my first AR "build" before I ever started listening to the Modcast. I have yet to assemble the rifle and was planning to bring it to a gunsmith with 33 years of experience to put togeather. Should I sell all the parts and buy a quality rifle instead? I appreciate all of your time and knowledge.

I have an off the shelf AR (Ruger) and I've built an AR. Neither are what the P&S team would probably consider duty grade.

The built rifle consists of an Aero Precision Upper mated to an Aero Precision lower I put together and a Toolcraft Nib BCG.

All that said, I made sure not to put any trash from Amazon or Alibaba in it, even if some of the lower components are pretty bog standard stuff from Brownells.

A bought AR has a warranty and a customer support team. A built one has YOU as both the warranty and the customer support team.
 
Here is my take on having someone manufacture a duty upper. Are they a licensed FFL? Do they have liability insurance? If something goes catastrophic with that rifle because of the construction, who are you going to hold responsible?

Also not doubting your friend, but how do you know that he will build it to a hard use standard? Does he have the necessary tools and knowledge? Does he know what everything is supposed to be torque'd to value wise? What get staked? Etc Did he complete bushmaster armorer or one of Will or Sully's class?

And I say that as a guy that has taken multiple armorers courses , held the certification for several years and is the armorer for my agency. I don't even build my own uppers for fun use, never mind duty use.

Agreed, I do NOT have the tools or experience necessary to safety place a barrel in an upper receiver.
 

Nowski

Member
I have been is the same place as you, at this point in my life I have owned 5 AR's two of which were mid to low tier rifles. This is not a lot in the grand scheme of things but it has allowed me to learn, and I leaned that I I'm still learning. There is nothing wrong with sourcing good parts and building. I have done it twice my 11.5 Areo/SLOGW pistol and my. BA/SW 14.5 mid length, both I would rely on the take to the range to train with and to use in a HD situation, as patrol working rifle or boogaloo gun they probably could but I would feel more comfortable with a factory rifle. I feel this way because I built and had guns built for me out of parts I bought and I have learned the cost and quality difference, which in today's market the cost difference is minimal but the quality difference is substantial.

With that all being said, have your rifle built use it and learn from it, you already have the parts and you wont recoup your money on them so drive on. But plan on investing on a quality factory rifle to have and to use for the hard stuff. I hope this makes sense and isn't to rambling.
 
I have been is the same place as you, at this point in my life I have owned 5 AR's two of which were mid to low tier rifles. This is not a lot in the grand scheme of things but it has allowed me to learn, and I leaned that I I'm still learning. There is nothing wrong with sourcing good parts and building. I have done it twice my 11.5 Areo/SLOGW pistol and my. BA/SW 14.5 mid length, both I would rely on the take to the range to train with and to use in a HD situation, as patrol working rifle or boogaloo gun they probably could but I would feel more comfortable with a factory rifle. I feel this way because I built and had guns built for me out of parts I bought and I have learned the cost and quality difference, which in today's market the cost difference is minimal but the quality difference is substantial.

With that all being said, have your rifle built use it and learn from it, you already have the parts and you wont recoup your money on them so drive on. But plan on investing on a quality factory rifle to have and to use for the hard stuff. I hope this makes sense and isn't to rambling.
Makes sense to me. I personally will eventually get a SOLGW AR... With a nice cerakote finish

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