Ideal Laser for NVG

marcusa

Member
Hey all!,

New job has me on a much longer commute which provides ample time to listen to P&S podcasts. I was listening to one from a while back on "Night Vision 101" and during the discussion on lasers that currently exist on the market, it was mentioned that none of them are "perfect". The consensus was that each of them had features that they liked, but also inherent drawbacks.

So the question is - what does the ideal IR aiming laser/illuminator look like (whether it currently exists or not)? What features would be "must have" and which pet peeves or inefficiencies would it address?
 

Gabe

Newbie
Super late, and I’m sure you have already committed to an IR device, but here are my thoughts.

First and foremost, my must have on is a usable IR illuminator. By usable, I mean it can reach out and illuminate shadows out to at least 200 meters. Simply put, even with the best environmental conditions and highest spec tubes, the ability to identify what you’re seeing drops off at 200 meters. Sure, you can see humanoid objects past that distance, but you won’t see what they are holding or doing. To me, it only makes sense that your IR illumination can support the capabilities of your NVGs.

While illumination is the most important thing to me, my biggest pet peeve is not having a single device with both an IR laser and illuminator. As of now, I’m not a fan of trying to get different products to work together. Specifically getting the switchology to work fluidly. Now saying that in the past six months, B.E. Meyers has released the KIJI, and Echo Arms has made an intergraded light mount for the CQBL laser. Add the fact that Modlight has a one button solution that can merge both the KIJI and CQBL, making it an enticing set up that would be fun to try.

That all said. I have a MAWL and it was worth the money. It does everything I want, and it’s the most intuitive device I’ve used this far. I’ve spent a lot of time with the full power Peq-15 and DBAL A3. I have also had some play time with both the NGAL and LA-5. While all the above are good devices, none beat the MAWL when it comes to switchology.

I’d be interested in hearing what direction you ended up going.
 

Farmboy20

Regular Member
I too am interested, i just purchased a pvs14 from tnvc and I’m trying to to figure what laser unit to get. Rn it’s between dbal d2 and dbal I2, to me and my knowledge the lasers on both units are more than sufficient, it’s the illuminators that’s what i want to know about. Like Gabe said 200m/yrds is what i want the illumination to reach out to. If anyone has experience with these I’d be greatly appreciate any knowledge y’all could drop on them. Or recommend another unit I’d appreciate it.
 

Gabe

Newbie
The first IR device I bought was a DBAL I2, its illuminator is only good for 50-75 meters. Less if ambient light near by. It needs to be really dark for the I2 illuminator to be of any worth.

While I haven't seen a D2 in person, from what I've heard, it's a solid choice over buying a MAWL. If I had the cash laying around, I would get a D2 over another MAWL or full power PEQ-15.
 

Farmboy20

Regular Member
10-4 I appreciate it man. I ain’t got that mawl money anyhow lol. I’ll be getting a d2 then
 
I cannot remember where I read this but it’s been the most comprehensive list of lasers out there that I’ve found.

Here’s a breakdown of the current major MFAL (Multi Function Aiming Laser) options on the market with their respective pros/cons and price points.

1. RAID Xe, MAWL DA/X1, NGAL- 3-6k+ if you can find one, very few exist on the grey market. The current top tier of MFAL performance using VCSEL emitter technology at full power output. At this level, the differences between models are more in design and features rather than capability, and any one of them will effectively cover the entire spectrum of carbine active aiming applications, as well as most mid range precision applications.

2. LA5B - 3k+ essentially a higher output version of the PEQ15, substantially more powerful than even the modern VCSEL options listed above, really overpowered for the vast majority of common MFAL applications, especially for civilian shooters, but the extra power lends itself heavily to precision CNVD applications.

3. MAWL C1+/Raid Xe-C- currently the best readily available unrestricted LAMs on the market, but still 2800+ for the MAWL and 3500+ for the Raid. Uses the same VCSEL laser array that the full power versions use, but with reduced output for FDA compliance. The RAID Xe-C is far more difficult to justify at such a premium over the MAWL for what amounts to some different features and footprint.

4. Full power PEQ15- 2k+ for a clean perfect one all the way down to around 1500ish for a salty ass beat to shit probably not fully functional one, outclassed by current generation tech but still a very versatile, reliable, and useable unit that will cover all the bases for 90% of shooters, and the higher output designator can push through some environmental conditions that may overcome the civilian restricted designator of even a MAWL C1. Some will complain about the lack of warranty support, but the reality is that MFAL warranties across the spectrum only last typically 1 year or less, and there are options in existence for 3rd party repair for PEQ15s

5. PEQ15A/DBAL A2/A3 FP- similar in cost and performance to the PEQ15, only Steiner’s version.

6. DBAL D2 - 1200-1300- rock solid value for versatile useable performance, awesome illuminator for a civvy LAM, but bulky and heavy, has a more significant visual signature to consider, and you have to worry about the Steiner Port Prolapse (SPP) issue

7. DBAL I2 9007 single spectrum- 650-800, bottom line basic bitch option that works, but you'll grow out of it real quick, and it also has the issue of SPP

8. DBAL A3- 1200, essentially an I2 with a slaved visible laser, and again...........SPP

9. ATPIAL-C- 1300+, civvy version of the PEQ15, fixed shitty illuminator, but still durable and dependable. A bit difficult to justify the price tag at retail, unless you’re building a clone and can’t get FP

10. Perst lasers- 400-1500, Russian “full power” lasers with hit or miss output (2 lasers of the same model side by side can have substantially different output levels, from borderline civvy level to proper 40+ mw), poor collimation leading to excessive bloom, especially at higher output levels, and a poor track record in wet cold environments. Uses a large proprietary tape switch that precludes integration with current dual switch options. Can give ok performance if you’re lucky enough to get one without any of these issues, and can be a relatively budget friendly way to get a high power laser, if that’s all that matters to the buyer, but when all the drawbacks and potential performance/reliability issues are taken into account, the juice isn’t really worth the squeeze for serious use. The ultimate LARPer’s laser

11. Holosun- equivalent output to other legacy tech civilian restricted lasers. Some reports of plug connectivity issues, the illuminator output can be distorted or uneven, and the QD mount can have issues with unlocking under heavier recoil. The 321 can give the user DBAL A3 comparable performance at a lower price, but at the price of reduced reliability or output clarity.

12. The rest of the DBAL I2's with no illuminator(avoid at all costs)

13. Everything else is either too shitty to even consider, application specific, or doesn’t have sufficient time on the market to give solid input on.
 

Farmboy20

Regular Member
Hey that’s a some awesome info on laser dude that’s extremely helpful I’d really like a mawl or the eye safe raid-x but the cost i just can’t justify rn, maybe down the road in a few years when they more plentiful and cheaper.
 

Default.mp3

Established
That list is a bit outdated, and misses some of the much more interesting units, along with making potentially faulty assumptions about the RAID-Xe Class 1, which may end up being absolute trash in terms of output:
7-C96-F5-AC-F5-CF-44-E4-A568-406-A42-DF8-FF3.jpg


For civilians, its missing the Phantom Hill CTFs, the USNV/3EIR DesignateIR-V, and the incoming Z-Bolt ACAL. The CTF-2 is certainly the one to watch, with the CTF-3 being very interesting based off of the tidbits that Phantom Hill has dropped about it.
 

Farmboy20

Regular Member
I was re reading the list on the lasers and notice the (spp) stiener port prolapse issue. Can anyone elaborate on that??
 

Default.mp3

Established
I was re reading the list on the lasers and notice the (spp) stiener port prolapse issue. Can anyone elaborate on that??
Attempting to remove a Crane plug that was plugged int and pulling out the entire port on a Steiner unit. Google it, you'll find plenty of examples of it.
 

Hush

Newbie
Sounds like EOTECH is coming out with an NGAL like offering in .civ and full power for around $1600

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk
 

Farmboy20

Regular Member
I thought all newer generations of illuminators like wilcox raid Xe were going with the VCSEL style illuminators. Sm i mistaken on that?
 

Default.mp3

Established
I thought all newer generations of illuminators like wilcox raid Xe were going with the VCSEL style illuminators. Sm i mistaken on that?
Most of the newer MFALs are using VCSEL for the illuminator, but without any definitive announcements from EOTech or some industry insider, I wouldn't automatically assume it. The array does look too small for LED, at least, but the older edge emitting illuminators is still a distinct, albeit unlikely, possibility.
 

mark1911

<Catchy Title Coming Soon>
Staff member
Moderator
Vendor
Most of the newer MFALs are using VCSEL for the illuminator, but without any definitive announcements from EOTech or some industry insider, I wouldn't automatically assume it. The array does look too small for LED, at least, but the older edge emitting illuminators is still a distinct, albeit unlikely, possibility.
The new EOTECH on gun laser is VCSEL.

Hope you all had a nice Thanksgiving.
 
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