How to secure full size breaching shotgun?

#1
We just got two full size Remington 870DMs for our breachers. 18” barrels and Magpul SGA stocks plus the 6 rd mags. Prior shotguns were 870MCS with the short barrel and pistol grip setup. Guys before me went to SIG Academy and took a class where Kyle Lamb suggested full size and 6+ round capacity. Class I just went to with CTS run by an Austin PD guy suggested what we used to have. So now the D-ring and webbing clipped to your drag handle and secured in the weapons catch at your 4 o’clock that I was taught doesn’t work. My thought was single point sling that I used to have my M4 on and use a magnetic weapons catch on the front to keep the shotgun centered so I can draw my pistol and keep the other hand free. Anyone have any suggestions or alternatives they’ve tried?
 
#2
It’s unfortunate you were given that advice and I’m doubtful his recommendation included box magazine fed shotguns for breaching specifically.
The overall length and weight as well as lost maneuverability compared to a dedicated breaching shotgun over which you gain 3 rounds is an absolute no go for us.

In theory the ability to swap magazines from duty ammo to breaching rounds makes it possible to run it as an entry gun / breaching shotgun by an officer with exceptional shotgun experience. I have yet to see this work in practice during any classes I’ve instructed. You can try it in your training but I strongly advise against it as method you’d deploy with.
I’m not sure how often your team uses ballistic breaching operationally but it shouldn’t be that often in our environment. That being said mounting a tool you’ll rarely use to your front centerline will just be a disaster. It will get in the way of everything you do and eventually won’t be carried anymore.
If you Have no other option you’ll need to secure it on your strong side in two spots, just a weapons catch won’t fly with all that extra length and the yard sale will begin as soon as you start swinging a ram or sledge if you use them.
Please PM and we can talk on the phone if you’d like further info.
 

Fatboy

Established
#3
Blowers has some good stuff about shotguns for breaching up in the LEO/ restricted areas if the two of you are vetted. Just an FYI.
 

Oak City Tactics

Moderator
Moderator
#5
I’m thinking something was lost in the translation there. HRT worked with that magazine fed Russian semi auto AKish in a cut down pistol grip for a bit. I’m not sure if that program continues but one was in the plan for the bunker rescue as I recall. Keeping a mag fed gun going on a multi breach operation is a lot easier for sure.
Each team is different as well as each mission profile. If I recall correctly a lot of Bill’s MTOE revolved around a dedicated dude or dudes with full size guns on the objective that could be called into action or not, the show still went on around them either way with enough manpower so no loss making one or two guys dedicated to that. In that scenario why not go full size with max capacity. Again different mission profiles require different set ups. If you think you are using them on warrant service your set up might be different than planned HR (or maybe not) or active shooter.
I pushed for and we got short guns and as many as we could get. I wanted one for about every three guys. For the same reason we mix and crossload other breaching tools. When it kicks off you want to stack the odds that the first few guys to arrive will have what they need to do about anything in extremis. I want them short and unobtrusive because those guys gotta be assaulters first then if a breaching problem arises they have the tool at hand yet it doesn’t interfere with their ability to shoot, climb, fight, or handle people.

So Id say it’s only wrong if you only have one option. If on an HR we get passed the emergency action plan (which may involve the shorty currently on hand) and in the planned assault we know there is gonna be a shotgun breach, then I want that dedicated dude with max capacity because 3-4 rounds can go fast with limited result. “Roll off, my door!” However in any other scenario I don’t want to be waiting for the shotgun breacher to make from way out at the academy across town where he was teaching a class to recruits either. Spread the small ones out and make sure they are unobtrusive enough that guys with rifles don’t notice they are carrying them. I’m curious enough to call Kyle and ask about this.
 
#6
OP and I spoke on the phone this morning and I think he understood my points as well as why I’m able to speak about it with such confidence. That’s for him to decide.
As far as the bunker goes when plan A failed they did a great job of continuing to win. The out come was unique and I wouldn’t roll the dice on it turning out the way it did again.
As far as semi auto they are unreliable when switching rounds and all box fed guns add bulk over a tube magazine and you gain nothing as far as ammo capacity unless you’re throwing a 10 or 20 rounder on and then you’re just not making sense in my experience.
Ballistic breaching was over used when I came to the team 13 years ago and continues to be over used by many. In the civilian law enforcement environment with predominantly soft targets / high liability environments we have to be professional and adapt our tactics. If the answer is ever “well we’ve always done it that way” you’re wrong. Locked door = 2 rounds is for guys who don’t know what they’re doing. As far as the what if I have to go hinges excuse, I say what kind of door and how does it swing? Also what kind of rounds are you using? I’ve used a breaching shot gun on real hostage rescues and not once shot hinges. If you don’t have a manual tool to support you your hinge shots on a pull door or barricades door will do nothing.
Breaching is a profession and an art not something the biggest or newest guy does.
I guess this is more of a rant about my passion for breaching and less about the shotgun. It’s a useful tool when properly employed by a trained breacher as just one option they should have in their belt.
I’m fortunate enough to have been able to employ any and all breaching options at my own discretion because I carry them with me along with my carbine and so do our other lead breachers.
 

Oak City Tactics

Moderator
Moderator
#7
You are correct and I should denoted that FEEDING a mag fed gun on a multi breach is easier but they are not super reliable in their semi auto form at least for the Russian one. I’ve not touched either the Remington or Mossberg box fed pump offerings.

I’ve always run 870 based breaching guns with a short dalliance with a 14” M1S90 used in that role. The M1 was reliable with the particular round being used at that time and was used in a similar manner to Bill’s dedicated team member.

Chriscanbreach is correct that it’s not some magical key. There are fewer shotgun breach problems than pry problems usually. Again I reference the rule of three. For a 10-12 man element 3 breaching shot guns, 3 haligans, 3 sledges, 3 explosive breachers, 3 less lethal/gas systems, 2-3 rams and 2-3 bunkers. Not all that gets carried every time by every body but its in the field. The first 3-4 guys to arrive will have access to all they need for in extremis operations until support arrives.