How do we grow?

Kain

Member
So with Matt trying to grow support on Patreon and this being genuinely the first forum that has more signal to noise that I have seen in just about forever, as well as fact it really isn't just solely gun related topics that one can learn about here, medical, being one, the fact that we don't see the sky is crumbling and we are all doomed mindset instead we have a more how do we fight it and keep our rights, which is kind of a breath of fresh air and some hope for the community in general.

But, things are often kind of quiet and there are a lot of guys that I know, that I am sure a lot of others here know, who have information that can beneficial to the community. Or people who would benefit from good knowledge base so that they don't fall for the derp that is out there, understand that no not all guns, ARs, optics, light ect are the same, the push to get people involved in fighting for their own rights before things actually turn into a bloody fight, So how do we get people involved, not just on Patreon since I think that just comes in as people hang around and see the environment and knowledge and decide to contribute. I myself see paying Patreon as better than any magazine subscription, Christ knows I get more content, forget the fact that it is actual good info and not bullshit. Like the one article which tried to laugh off 10 shot groups as being useful and that 3 rounds were completely fine in gauging accuracy of a rifle. Even if only a dollar a month, $12 a year here beats just about every gun magazine out there. But, I think most know that.

So in my long winded round about way, how do we get more people to join, learn, and not water down the signal to noise ratio we have here? I've been preaching to those who will listen who I think would benefit from hanging around here, but I'll be damned if I can get any to actually come around. What else can we do, or do I just hang out with cheap commie assholes in real life?

Any help? Advice?
 
Personally I've almost given up trying to change the fuds and people who won't open their minds to new thoughts. I've been focusing more on putting myself out there to people not into the same things as myself. More being an ambassador to my intrestest without being pushy aboutg it. Helping them start in the right direction if they are intrested. This year I've helped influence 2 new gun owners, previously anti gun. Also gotten 3 people to take to carrying some medical gear and a class.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
 

Joe _K

Established
There are Fudds, and people that repeat Fudd things. The the enlightened ignorant individuals, the ones that know that they don’t know. I reference P&S when appropriate to do so. Unfortunately most are satisfied with what they “learned” in Hunter Safety, The Military 10 years ago, from Uncle Eddy the retired Cop, the LGS Counter, their year long stint working at Cabelas etc.
 

Low_Speed_Notper8or

Regular Member
There are Fudds, and people that repeat Fudd things. The the enlightened ignorant individuals, the ones that know that they don’t know. I reference P&S when appropriate to do so. Unfortunately most are satisfied with what they “learned” in Hunter Safety, The Military 10 years ago, from Uncle Eddy the retired Cop, the LGS Counter, their year long stint working at Cabelas etc.

And let's not forget the stuff young guys learn from the internet or other places

I had a friend of mine who was a roofer who was about 23 at the time who justified carrying a 6 shot taurus .380 in his pocket because "I don't need many shots or to practice reloads because I will just pick up dead guys guns off the ground like the cartels"

I think I might of had a brain aneurysm because that was so stupid.

So seriously, all you older shooter guys with your salt and pepper beards and 5.11 pants and guns worth more then my car, go and educate some young guys. take them shooting, take them to a match, let them shoot some not crap guns and tell them why things are bad, maybe volunteer with your college college's student's for concealed carry or the collegiate sports shooting initiative
 

Longinvs

Regular Member
Quantified Performance
In regards to recruitment, a lot of it has to do with what your sphere of influence is. If you see the same people everyday all of them are already probably an "is" or an "ain't" in regards to this forum and rights in general. For me, when people come into the shop I'm regularly offered the opportunity to plug P&S because I get asked where to look for good info without having to deal with the gun derps of other sources.
 

Kain

Member
I am not sure I am we should completely discount the fudds, or even the antis, to some extent, as far as discussions go. If we want to accept that Ash has something with his bell curve there very well should be a group on their sides which will be open to learn and come to our side. Even if we don't have cookies. I mean, I've personally watched "fudds" in the past couple years go from not getting why someone needs an AR, to buying one of the cheap ARs, and had one recently that came to me to ask about "fighting" ARs after buying a Ruger AR556 like a year ago and finding his liked the idea, enjoyed shooting it, but wanted something more heavy duty to defend home and hearth with. We can win over some it just might take time and the right tact. It also means that as much as I hate PSA and other cheap bargain bin ARs, that little diddy of mine shows that maybe they can be the gateway drug to get people into better fighting rifles and bring them mentally to our mentality. If nothing else cheap rifles put more numbers on the street for the sake of arguing common use and stops others from buying up all my BCMs. There is also the fact that sometimes it isn't the argument or discussion with them to persuade them but, at least online the idea that it is for the third party watching and seeing the argument or discussion. I mean, I can remember posting in response to some asshat claiming that ARs can never run more than 100 rounds without jamming up to the point of needing an armorer the article on Filthy 14 and getting a response to the affect that they wouldn't waste the time to read that much of an article and they were right anyway. But others still followed the link opposed to only having a single argument to read. So perhaps secondary affects of what we are saying in online forums should be considered as a means to bring others to us.

I think it is also worth noting that we as a community need to get our heads out of our asses and get away from this, "Everyone has to agree with me" bullshit. This division bullshit needs to end because we are so fractured as a community that we make a broken glass look whole. We argue and throw insults at each other worse than our own opposition, and we are no better about chasing the latest scandals in our own community than they are. Look at the whole ND discussion that we recently hashed out on that topic.

But, my question still stands how do bring more people here, what points, arguments, discussion, can be have. I myself have friends who honestly are already half way or more onboard with the ideas here, already into the gear, BCM, DD, KAC, ect rifles, wanting to RDS their pistols, but when I mention P&S I get dumbfounded looks, when I send links they don't click, when I bring up arguments to support the endeavors that are going on here, pro gun, pro rights, pro information, I get silence, literally. What am I saying or not saying that is not getting people to at least take a look around. Or are we few here just the one of one hundreds? The last of a dying breed? Men who will fight to be free, even against all odds, even against a united foe because we refuse to kneel?
 

RallyMech

Amateur
My primary interaction with fellow shooters is at 2 gun, 3 gun, and now USPSA. Just about every match someone asks about the orange thingy on my belt (CAT7), why I shoot matches with lights on my rifle/pistol, and how I've improved my shooting. Each of those moments is a spot where I can point to Matt Landfair, Karl Karsada, Scott Jedlinski, Chuck Pressburg, etc. It also helps to display competence, be it through where you place in matches, stepping up to be a RO, or simply being welcoming and respectful.

During a recent Club new RO class, medical equipment came up. At the following match, one of the other new ROs approached me with questions about what to buy, where to get it, etc. I'm extremely happy I was able to point him to the MedCast. Being able to point someone in the right direction in a 3 minute conversation is extremely useful.

The biggest problem I believe we face as a group is that most people are okay with being ignorant, and don't care to spend the time changing it. If the shooting world follows Ash's 10-80-10 distribution, our best hope is to capture as many members in the top 10% as possible. We will probably never be able to reach the competitive shooters that see CCW as pointless, those who only own firearms for hunting, or those who aren't willing to invest the time in themselves to absorb and digest the amount of information available.
 

pointblank4445

Established
Hello,

I feel that I am pretty representative of the target demographic that you are missing out on and the one that you appear to be reaching for.
I'm LE/swat/sniper/instructor/FTO...but only for about half of a career. Neither beginner nor SME.
I'm disgusted with the unwashed masses, but have to deal with them to find out what the subject matter experts are up to...at least until I totally break and dump social media and forums in a huge rage-quit.
I am the middle of the Dunning-Kruger curve.
I don't have time to keep up with the Facebook groups, discord, forums or to watch a live Modcast much less a pre/post show. The best I do is a few Modcasts a month to and from work in about 6-8 segments. If I find/hear something profound, I try my best to note the time so I can go back and write it down... I shudder to think how many nuggets of wisdom I've failed to record and have forgotten. Maybe some day I will review the old modcasts and find them again, but that's not likely. I don't normally use the forum because of the slow turnover and minimal discussion that doesn't come off as purchase validation. This is my honest, no-BS take on my experience thus far.

I try to recruit some of my tactically-minded peers and new officers that show promise. Most are overwhelmed by the content (not everyone can stomach 4 hours of glock dryfire in the background of streaming audio) or have no interest in the forum format. Upon getting into P&S I had some context of who some people were from LF and other things. From what I gather from my guys that have no context, it seems like a bunch of inside jokes and cryptic talk ("I'll tell you what's good but not what's bad," and over use of "learn for themselves."). True...learning is a 2-way street and they must put forth some effort, but I don't objectively feel like some of the concepts being put forth are as concise and as gift-wrapped as some mods/SME/guests perceive them to be. I'm merely stating why these things are not the "hook" that some think they are. It's simple drug dealer economics.

My suggestion would be figure out what you want your flagship medium to be (seems like you're steering toward the forum) and organize. Any thoughts on cataloging your Modcast snippits into subject-divided forum libraries/folders? P&S is extremely content rich, but its ability to be found is sometimes challenging. I only briefly worked in sales, but I know you got to get them in the door. Large, disconnected, and with locked (payable) content is going to scare that moderate/fringe/80% demographic away.

As far as maintaining signal to noise ratio on a forum, I don't know if human nature will allow it. Every good/popular forum walks the same line of a VH1 Behind the Music. The only other bit of advice I would have to those at the helm are not to forget where you came from. Keep seeking out innovation and talent and the future will be bright. Get too fat, happy, and complacent and people will be posting "I came over here from P&S" on some other intro thread.
 

travis B

Newbie
Hello,

I feel that I am pretty representative of the target demographic that you are missing out on and the one that you appear to be reaching for.
I'm LE/swat/sniper/instructor/FTO...but only for about half of a career. Neither beginner nor SME.
I'm disgusted with the unwashed masses, but have to deal with them to find out what the subject matter experts are up to...at least until I totally break and dump social media and forums in a huge rage-quit.
I am the middle of the Dunning-Kruger curve.
I don't have time to keep up with the Facebook groups, discord, forums or to watch a live Modcast much less a pre/post show. The best I do is a few Modcasts a month to and from work in about 6-8 segments. If I find/hear something profound, I try my best to note the time so I can go back and write it down... I shudder to think how many nuggets of wisdom I've failed to record and have forgotten. Maybe some day I will review the old modcasts and find them again, but that's not likely. I don't normally use the forum because of the slow turnover and minimal discussion that doesn't come off as purchase validation. This is my honest, no-BS take on my experience thus far.

I try to recruit some of my tactically-minded peers and new officers that show promise. Most are overwhelmed by the content (not everyone can stomach 4 hours of glock dryfire in the background of streaming audio) or have no interest in the forum format. Upon getting into P&S I had some context of who some people were from LF and other things. From what I gather from my guys that have no context, it seems like a bunch of inside jokes and cryptic talk ("I'll tell you what's good but not what's bad," and over use of "learn for themselves."). True...learning is a 2-way street and they must put forth some effort, but I don't objectively feel like some of the concepts being put forth are as concise and as gift-wrapped as some mods/SME/guests perceive them to be. I'm merely stating why these things are not the "hook" that some think they are. It's simple drug dealer economics.

My suggestion would be figure out what you want your flagship medium to be (seems like you're steering toward the forum) and organize. Any thoughts on cataloging your Modcast snippits into subject-divided forum libraries/folders? P&S is extremely content rich, but its ability to be found is sometimes challenging. I only briefly worked in sales, but I know you got to get them in the door. Large, disconnected, and with locked (payable) content is going to scare that moderate/fringe/80% demographic away.

As far as maintaining signal to noise ratio on a forum, I don't know if human nature will allow it. Every good/popular forum walks the same line of a VH1 Behind the Music. The only other bit of advice I would have to those at the helm are not to forget where you came from. Keep seeking out innovation and talent and the future will be bright. Get too fat, happy, and complacent and people will be posting "I came over here from P&S" on some other intro thread.

I think cutting the long casts up into smaller sections based on topics would be easier for the newbie to follow. Plus it would be easier to shoot them a link of the smaller video and just say "here, these guys can explain it much better than I can. Listen to this..."

I personally like the full length audio as I can just listen to it straight through. But for the rookie it's probably better off served is small portions until they are addicted or can take in the firehose of knowledge.

As for you keeping up with the social media / discord you should try and check out discord. Its pretty awesome. Especially the voice chat. Last couple nights there havent been any, but many of times there will be people on talking. And I always say a crowd draws a crowd. So if youre on just join chat and someone will probably hop on. Then others will too. The discussions are great.
 

Kain

Member
On chopping videos vs the entire clip. Pun, sort of intended there. I am pretty sure Matt's decision came down to what the patreons wanted. A kind of if you are paying you have a say in things. To some extent. I too like having the entire clip. That said, I would also say, I and I Matt is doing it, that some discussions, topics, ect. I know some have wanted the entire modcast broken down into topic points, but I don't see that being practical since modcasts can span far from their given topics. But, I think that is the charm of a modcast, it not being scripted, it being a little light hearted, the stupid stuff the laughs, it is organic and that appeals to me. Kind of like Chuck's patreon videos, him giving his patreons a shout out and it being unscripted and him just letting things free flow. I also will admit seeing a side of him that isn't the death dealing hard charging mofo makes me want to hug him and love the bastard even more. Anyway, I'm drifting off topic.

On the topic of discord, I will freely admit that it is something that I really like. I think it cuts down on the noise on the actual forum, though there needs to be a balance on getting actual serious topics, gun topics, gear, tactics, mindset on the forum for posterity purposes, in this I 100% back Matt's opinion there. But, the BS sessions, smoking and joking, food posts, that really makes discord shine and in some ways makes it more of a family than a community in my opinion.
 

Matt Landfair

Matt Six Actual
Staff member
Administrator
I edited modcasts to be 10-20 minutes of focused content daily - daily for one year. I got nothing but complaints and few views from that format. I am not going to tell you about the wasted hours, days, weeks it took to do all that editing.
 

pointblank4445

Established
@travis B .... gave it a look, not my thing. I guess I'm not really about the the "smokin' and inside jokin' " clubhouse thing anymore. Many apparently are and that's great. But it's tough to be a reference library and a saloon at the same time. I'm all for the concept as I would have been all over it 10-15 years ago. Perhaps P&S just isn't right for me...

Matt, I don't doubt it.

One example I would highlight is Pressburg's "Dark Truth" which is just under 2 minutes. Much of the content that's put out on P&S is valuable...but from a matter of context. But once in a great while there are those moments that are universal gold..."Dark Truth" is one of those things. Varg also had a gem of mindset being about control under any situation. That's it. I don't think we need the modcasts chopped up into 10 bite-sized portions, but rather highlighting those beacons of wisdom to encourage others further exploration.

Again, OP asked an open question, and that's just my take on it...
 

Kain

Member
As far as the smoking and joking goes, that is really everywhere, and a lot more prevalent in other forums. I mean some other forums when you pull the the recent posts 90% are general discussion bullshit, the other nine percent is me too posts, and derp, and then you have 1% of good info. Discord removes a lot of the random noise on the actual forum. Down side, sometimes legit points get made and lost in the noise. That is an issue that I think as thing get sorted and mods push good content to the forum, and lessons learned to the forum. it is a learning process to an extent and a set up that I have not seen elsewhere so Matt is either cra cra, or he is ahead of the curve. Me, I'm along for the ride helping where I can.

On video content side. The YT channel isn't like most YT channels in regards to the content. Considering the biggest draw is the modcasts you have a lot of people I think who want the full length discussions, it like main time TV talk shows, but with more guns and profanity. I think it is awesome. And like I said before, the really good gems I think are getting pulled out into their own segments. I also can easily understand the issue for Matt in breaking them up because the discussions do ramble a bit, take wonky turns, and get a little insane from time to time. The big points might be worth pulling out into their own videos, but for the most part I don't see a huge benefit, and it isn't something that is guaranteed every modcast. What might be useful, could be putting a time stamp thing in the description to allow jumps to point of discussion in the video. But, I have no idea how well that would work. I think you can do it on YT, but no idea on other platform like Vimeo.
 

travis B

Newbie
Time stamping different topics of discussion sounds like a good idea. It would help if you’re trying to go back and find a nugget of info that’s buried in a 3 hour modcast
 

Longinvs

Regular Member
Quantified Performance
For me personally I didn't like the sliced up versions because I had to manage that, I couldn't start a modcast and just let it run while I was working on a project. The long versions to me are something where you could drop into the live show, listen for a few minutes, drop out, and still come away with something beneficial. Modcast 146 was a good example of this to me. Each one of the mods had a number of 3-5 minute thoughts that had some good info in it that didn't require you to have been there since the episode started.
As far as the forum is concerned I think our bullshit-to-content ratio is excellent. I don't need to scroll past 2 pages on derp/troll/me to in order to get to something that actually adds value to the discussion. This is what I think makes this space so much better than others imo.
But not to stray too far from the OP. As far as bringing more people to the forum, the entire forum may not be the ideal launch for a person newer to the community. There are some that wouldn't do well with the entire body off the bat so directing them to a specific channel can be a better route. I didn't find P&S early on. I had been following Aaron Cowan, Ian McCollum, Steve Fisher, and others for a couple years before I even heard about P&S. I didn't finally join until I went and took a class from Steve and had another student explain to my that I NEEDED what this forum has to offer. Some need to be reeled in slowly.
 

Kain

Member
Longinvs what arguements were used to convince you that you needed to join the forum? Am curious and would be open to having extra tools in my pocket as it were.
 

Longinvs

Regular Member
Quantified Performance
Longinvs what arguements were used to convince you that you needed to join the forum? Am curious and would be open to having extra tools in my pocket as it were.
It was the knowledge on finer points in arguments for one. Carry ammo for example. I had never heard of this Doc GKR guy before the forum. Now discussing carry ammo I can reference someone who has done legitimate scientific testing. People have been put down by ball ammo, but being able to show why spending money on good hollow points added value for my work. Or the modcasts that have guys like Ray Miller or Jose Gordon. That's info I wouldn't find wandering around youtube because it's not from a source that is running a business for the general populace and relies on web presence, it's just from a guy that has decades of knowledge and experience and is looking to pass that along. At the time I had felt pretty settled in to the sources that I was following and wasn't terribly open to new channels, not fully understanding the value of a think tank type group like this. The independent channels are great, but when you can get a group that can have an intelligent discussion it raises the bar. Ultimately it was the collective knowledge that was able to soundboard off another source and professionally articulate what they were saying.
The TL;DR version is there were a lot of smart folk on here.
 

pooty

Newbie
Hello,
As far as maintaining signal to noise ratio on a forum, I don't know if human nature will allow it. Every good/popular forum walks the same line of a VH1 Behind the Music. The only other bit of advice I would have to those at the helm are not to forget where you came from. Keep seeking out innovation and talent and the future will be bright. Get too fat, happy, and complacent and people will be posting "I came over here from P&S" on some other intro thread.

I think that allowing only one post per 48 hrs for most users, unless that person was verified LE, Mil or other 'subject matter expert', would help cut down on 'noise', along with an option to put selected threads and subforums on ignore mode.
 
Top