Home Gun Safes

[LegionPrime]

I'm taking it upon myself to move the FB Safe discussion here.

Tyler Phelps
June 9
What are recommended gun safes for a residence? What features are necessary? What should be avoided?

Comments

Harry Rogers Make sure it's heavy as fuck so if a couple of dudes break into your home while your gone, the two of them can't carry it out.
Something that's got a decent fire rating is good as well.
Like · Reply · June 9 at 10:26pm

Mark Toronjo Heavy is not good enough you need to bolt it down. Dudes will steal 800lbs safes by tipping them over on to a hoola hoop full of golf balls and just roll it out.
Like · Reply · 10 · June 9 at 10:28pm · Edited

Harry Rogers Hoola hoop full of golf balls?
I get the point you're trying to make, but I guess I need a demonstration
Like · Reply · June 9 at 10:31pm

Mark Toronjo The hoola hoop keeps the golf balls from rolling away. The safe lays on top of the balls and act like ball bearings and you just roll it out
Like · Reply · 4 · June 9 at 10:35pm

Harry Rogers ah, I see...
Like · Reply · June 9 at 11:04pm

Joshua David Learn something new every day
Like · Reply · June 9 at 11:20pm

David Stout Now I know how Mark got his safe.. Sounds like a pro!
Like · Reply · 2 · June 9 at 11:25pm

Timothy Giblin I'm so trying this next time I always used 1.5" bars to move mine and its pretty quick.
Like · Reply · 1 · June 9 at 11:52pm

Jason Hill They make strap lifts that let two men tip it sideways, set the strap, and walk with it. Basically a cargo strap with shoulder straps. You can carry a safe out of a house at your walking speed and into a Uhaul or pickup in zero time.
Like · Reply · 3 · June 10 at 12:20am


Mike Martin Good post, Im fairly ignorant of the nuances between safe types. What are the desired locking mechanisms? Is there a number of bolts per foot, do they have to have a shear feature, do bolts need to surround the perimeter? etc etc. My gut tells me safes are bought based on paint jobs and carpet/lighting. What is the real deal?
Like · Reply · 2 · June 9 at 11:03pm

Tyler Phelps This is exactly the information I'm hoping to get.
Like · Reply · June 11 at 8:17am


Drew Yersin Search the forum or on LF I seem to recall reading an awesome thread about safes. It may have been tied to meckleys deal
Like · Reply · 1 · June 9 at 11:12pm

Mark Toronjo The truth is that pretty all of the gun safes you can buy can be breached given enough tools and time. (Side note don't keep your gas powered steel saw sitting by your gun safe)
So when looking balance cost with protection. You want heavy enough gauge steel to make it really hard to cut through and make it take time and make noise, you want exposed hinges and four way bolts anti pry measures
Like · Reply · 4 · June 9 at 11:13pm · Edited

Timothy Giblin Why do you want exposed hinges?
Like · Reply · June 9 at 11:53pm

Mark Toronjo Exposed hinges allow you to open the door a lot wider and could potentially make a thief waste time trying to cut them off, door isn't going anywhere if the hinges are cut off and the 12+ bolts are still in place
Like · Reply · 8 · June 9 at 11:58pm


Mark Toronjo What is your price range? That will determine a lot
Like · Reply · June 9 at 11:16pm

Tyler Phelps I'm thinking somewhere between 1500-2500. It'll be protecting $50k or more in firearms, optics, NODs, money, etc. I plan to layer security as well.
Like · Reply · June 9 at 11:18pm · Edited

Mark Toronjo This is probably my next safe, they have smaller ones in the Hunter line for a little less. But I like Brown safes and the hunter line is a solid choice for price versus features.
http://www.browning.com/products/gu...-collection/hunter-safes/hells-canyon-48.html

Hell's Canyon 48 Extra Wide
Like · Reply · June 9 at 11:18pm


Lee Gullett Going to ask a crazy question. Has anyone done a cost benefit forsafe vs concrete poured walls for a "safe room"?
Like · Reply · June 9 at 11:34pm

Mark Toronjo Browning makes a legit safe door that can be used forsafe rooms, can't remember how much the average on costs to build a buddy of mine ran the gun safe sales for.Able Ammo.and he told.me once, I do recall it being expensive
Like · Reply · 1 · June 9 at 11:37pm

Drew Yersin My FFL guy built a room under his garage 24" ceiling and 12" walls. Massive Safe door on the enters nice. Doubles as a tornado room obviously. No idea on cost. He put it in with the house. After talking with a local guy, pouring concrete walls or even cinder blocks would be pretty costly and even all that doesn't fire proof the ceiling
Like · Reply · 2 · June 9 at 11:38pm

Lee Gullett I'll talk to my dad to see what he got quoted at, wanna say only a few dollars per square foot, though it's going into a space that's already concrete on three sides so he'd only be paying for the door/one wall.
Like · Reply · June 9 at 11:39pm

Timothy Giblin Depending on handiness cinder block with rebar in it and pour in concrete is surprisingly not that pricey if you do it yourself.
Like · Reply · 4 · June 9 at 11:42pm

T.Walker Peterson The door will be pricey and if you have to move...
Like · Reply · 1 · June 10 at 3:24am · Edited

Peter Ronin Gibraltdoor makes a heavy duty "safe type" door for homes and safe rooms
Like · Reply · 1 · June 10 at 10:21am · Edited

Landon Meyer One thing to think about when considering concrete is safe rooms as a firearm safe is the ability for moisture to creep in, especially if you are going to live in an area with seasonal temperature changes (i.e. not florida, socal, or hawaii). Especially if it's in a basement, you can have the concrete walls sweat and bring in moisture from the surrounding earth. There are lots of easy ways to remedy this, like silica buckets, dehumidifier of varying shapes and sizes, special insulation during construction.

Edit: it's easily taken care of, just don't overlook it entirely.
Like · Reply · 2 · June 10 at 11:16am · Edited


Mike Martin When I was shopping for one a while back one of the specs that was different across brands was the gap around the door (ability to insert a tankers bar in and pry it). Would want to know the maximum gap that is acceptable. The layered comment reminded me of one consideration, have seen some place the safe in a garage because it was the easiest "room" to move it into. Unfortunately the reverse process becomes easy as well and the safe can be quietly removed and loaded for convenient cutting elsewhere.
Like · Reply · June 10 at 6:37am

Hulbert Parsons Any options that don't weigh a metric ton? I ask because I live in an apartment and would have to move that bastard myself...upstairs...
Like · Reply · June 11 at 12:27am · Edited

Kyle Kotlarz My gun safe sits in my garage, but only contains a .22 rifle and pistol, and stuff I take away from my kids. It is literally a tool box brand, and about as secure.
Like · Reply · June 11 at 8:17am

So that's basically the thread as it stands currently minus a few deviations from the discussion.
I'm doing this because I may be buying one this fall and felt this would be a good thread to have on the forum.
Here are some links back to discussions over on Lightfighter I felt would be useful as well.
Discussion starts off with safes for apartments and branches out into insurance and securing your safe
http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/when-do-you-need-a-gun-safe
Discussion on building a walk in gun safe room with excerpt from AR 190-11 Physical Security of A, A&E
http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/help-and-advice-sought-building-a-walk-in-gun-safe
Nice big discussion of the actual construction of safes as well as UL ratings and more
http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/a-little-info-on-gun-safes

 

[shooters101]

I'll add a few of my observations over the years I have been buying safes.

1: Never buy a safe the size you think you need. It's one of those items till you have one you never had an ideal of how many things you want to store in it! I don't want to say it's an absolute but in the last 20 years I have never talked to a sole hat as said I'm selling my safe because " it's too big!".

2: Fire ratings are a joke! You really must research these things and understand them. More times than not you will under rate the fire rating you need due to not understand how they work and if you need it. Most people buy a safe to protect their items from theft. So don't get hung up on all the differences in the fire ratings.

If you truly want fire ratings then surround your safe with as many solid(old bricks with no holes in them) bricks that you can. The thicker you can make these biricks the longer you can extend the fire rating on your safe. External walls are also good locations to extend the fire rating instead of right in the middle of your home. You can also use layers of Sheetrock/drywall also to bump up your rating. The moren insulation you can add will give your items a better chance to survive a house fire unharmed.

3: Protecting your items from theft is a layered approach and should be looked at from that aspect. Do you have dead bolts, alarm system, a monitored alarm system, cameras, dogs, fences, neighbors that watch out for each other etc.. All of these things matters and the harder you make it for them to smash and grab the better off you will be.

4: Location! If you have your safe in your garage with three of the four walls accessible right next to all your high dollar power tools it sort makes it a lot esier for the thiefs. Google search images "sawzall through safe" it's normally right at the top. Try to find small closets, small nooks or even build walls around it give your safe every chance to survive.

5: Truly think about how much the contents of the safe are worth. Does it make sense to go out and buy a $800.00 safe from and then stuff if with $25,000.00 worth of firesrms, optics and other items.

6: Don't just use the 2 holes most factory's provide to bolt your safe down. Drill holes in every corner and use no smaller than 1/2 anchors. If they walk off with your safe make sure they worked hard for it!

7: Have a plan if all else fails and you are broken in to or have a fire and loose everything. Make sure you understand if your insurance will cover your firearms. If not then find a good firearms insurance carrier that will.


Just a few of my thoughts

Thanks

 

[martin_j001]

A friend turned me on to Study Safe Manufacturing. For quality residential safes, they and a few other names can be heard repeatedly. They aren't super cheap, but they aren't ridiculous either. When you compare what you get for the money to safes you can buy in big box stores (Liberty, Canon, etc) the safes are significantly better in every way. My dealings with them were nothing but pleasant through the whole process.

https://www.facebook.com/sturdygunsafe/?fref=ts
https://www.sturdysafe.com/

 

[Dan Easterday]

A friend turned me on to Study Safe Manufacturing. For quality residential safes, they and a few other names can be heard repeatedly. They aren't super cheap, but they aren't ridiculous either. When you compare what you get for the money to safes you can buy in big box stores (Liberty, Canon, etc) the safes are significantly better in every way. My dealings with them were nothing but pleasant through the whole process.

https://www.facebook.com/sturdygunsafe/?fref=ts
https://www.sturdysafe.com/

These guys have been at the top of my list for quite some time. I just have to get the cash together. Did you get a fire rated model?

Please elaborate on the build quality and construction that Sturdy has, if you bought one.

 

[martin_j001]

These guys have been at the top of my list for quite some time. I just have to get the cash together. Did you get a fire rated model?

Please elaborate on the build quality and construction that Sturdy has, if you bought one.

I did indeed purchase a fire rated model from them. Based on my research, their fire-proofing method/products are significant improvements over what is used in the typical big box store safes. Not only that, it adds weight, and an additional layer of steel too. The build quality and construction is exactly what I expected when I first looked into them. I looked at many products in local big box stores, but when I compare those to mine it just *feels* as if it's better made, better quality, etc--hard to describe, but the increase in quality/materials is definitely noticeable.

 

[Will Brink]

Per my response in the other safe thread:

I'm not a safe expert, but I have done a fair amount of research on the topic, and what follows may be of help to those looking at safes/gun safes. When it comes to safes (and the term "safe" we will get to shortly...) you truly get what you pay for. You don't have spend a fortune for a good container, but in my view, it makes no sense to protect expensive guns, your wife's jewelry, and essential documents in a "safe" gotten from the sporing goods store.

It's essential to understand what usually passes for a "safe" is nothing of the kind. Companies spend a lot of time on fancy paint jobs, impressive handles, and marketing to convince people they are getting a true safe. However, the vast majority of what's sold are Residential Security Container (RSCs)

Companies give you a shiny fancy looking door, etc, but at the end of the day it's at best RSC rated, and not a "safe" as viewed by anyone who actually knows/installs real safes. It's important to note, not all RSCs are created equal, but when you look at what the actual RSC UL rating means, it will make you cringe:

"UL rated safes that carry the RSC label offer protection from tool attacks against the door of the safe for five minutes. Safes that carry the TL-15 and TL-30 classification offer protection from tool attacks against the safe's door for 15 or 30 minutes, respectively. Safes rated TLTR-15 or TLTR-30 offer protection from tool and torch attacks against the door for 15 or 30 minutes, respectively. Safes that are rated TLTRX6-15 or TLTRX6-30 offer protection from tool and torch attacks against any part of the safe for either 15 or 30 minutes. Of course, the price increases with the protection level."

If what you have/are considering, is UL Rated (and I wouldn't buy it if were not, but that's me and if there are any real lock smiths/safe installers here who wish to comment/correct me, please do) look at the inside door panel, there should be a tag that lists its UL rating.

Another important issue, especially for gun safes, most companies use simple gypsum board is an insulator, which draws moisture. They may use fancy terms, but on opening a wall, its gypsum board.

Higher end safes will use a composite of some sort, that is better all around for both fire and security. To the best of my knowledge, only AMSEC uses a composite in the lower end BF series products for example which improves it's security as well as fire rating.


Budget is the essential issue here, as you can get a cheap 12g gun locker or a TL30 AMSEC gun safe, and much inbetween. It's often a good idea to decide on what to spend on a safe as a % of what it is you are trying to protect, as well as other factors, such as additional security (alarms, quality of locks, doors, etc, etc) but securing things yo don't want stolen means not putting it in a cheap metal box that's intended to prevent kids and "snatch and grab" types.

Second consideration is location, as a real safe has limitations where you can put it due to their weight and size.

As mentioned, not all RSCs are created equal. For example, the AMSEC BF series is as good as some companies B rates safes, etc.. and probably the best of the RSCs on the market.

Finally, no matter what you get, have it bolted down. I can't tell you how many times I have read about safes simply being carried off by a few guys with a hand truck, with the owner (ex owner!) always being shocked! If a few guys with a sturdy hand truck can get it in your house, what makes anyone believe the reverse is not true???

If you do everything right and it still gets broken into/taken away, 99.9%, it's an inside job and someone knew exactly what you had and came prepared, so pick your friends well!

If you have the budget and need to protect an expensive collection (and people willing to put their collection of fine guns into a cheap RSC are asking for trouble...). I believe AMSEC is the only company that makes a TL30 UL listed gun safe.

It's a monster...See:

http://www.amsecusa.com/

That's my basic run down/advice on safes that comes from my research, discussions with many a safe installer, etc.

 

[avtech850]

The only thing I can add to the conversation is a few take aways that I've learned after researching "Safe's" for the last few months.
- If it can be installed without a crew, it is a RSC not a safe
- Either Grufunder or Amsec will be the builders of my next safe.

 

[Arete]

A lot of good info above.

I've responded to numerous burglaries over the years, many of which had safes/RSC's of various types.

Small safe (security container)? They'll carry it away easily. Gun locker? Easily pried open. Large safe? Tip it over and slide/carry it to a waiting pickup truck. Safe upstairs? Tip it over and slide it down the stairs (let gravity do the work) and carry it away. Safe bolted down? Adds some time, but if bolted only to the floor they can tip it over and the bolts will rip out of the floor (needs to be bolted to floor AND wall).

To open a RSC, they'll use a sledge or torch to attack the corner where the welds join, then use a chisel or a wedge with the sledge to attack the welds and open it like a can opener. Angle grinders can also be used.

If the turds have opportunity, time, and seclusion, they WILL get it open, one way or another.

You need to deny them that opportunity, time, and seclusion as stated above with security in layers: alarms, cameras, nosy neighbors, dogs, bolting the safe to the wall and floor, making the safe as heavy as you can by (if you reload and buy bullets in bulk, you can store a few cases of bullets inside the safe w/o adversely reducing the usable storage space for guns; and/or you can put some 45 lb weight plates inside it). Not leaving hand trucks, power tools, etc. available in the garage for them to use helps, too. Buying a larger, heavier safe in the first place helps, too.

 

[Elroy]

I recently bought a gun safe from protection plus security solution http://protectionplus.ca/residential/safes/gun-safes/ . B rate container is the best, a 0.5” steel outer door sheet would be better. I would prefer locks that are either dial or with an electric keypad combination.

 

[NolaCRNA]

I did some research a while back and sturdy safe stood out when you compare quality with price point.

 

[GSDB]

I did some research a while back and sturdy safe stood out when you compare quality with price point.

A lot of good info above.

I've responded to numerous burglaries over the years, many of which had safes/RSC's of various types.

Small safe (security container)? They'll carry it away easily. Gun locker? Easily pried open. Large safe? Tip it over and slide/carry it to a waiting pickup truck. Safe upstairs? Tip it over and slide it down the stairs (let gravity do the work) and carry it away. Safe bolted down? Adds some time, but if bolted only to the floor they can tip it over and the bolts will rip out of the floor (needs to be bolted to floor AND wall).

To open a RSC, they'll use a sledge or torch to attack the corner where the welds join, then use a chisel or a wedge with the sledge to attack the welds and open it like a can opener. Angle grinders can also be used.

If the turds have opportunity, time, and seclusion, they WILL get it open, one way or another.

You need to deny them that opportunity, time, and seclusion as stated above with security in layers: alarms, cameras, nosy neighbors, dogs, bolting the safe to the wall and floor, making the safe as heavy as you can by (if you reload and buy bullets in bulk, you can store a few cases of bullets inside the safe w/o adversely reducing the usable storage space for guns; and/or you can put some 45 lb weight plates inside it). Not leaving hand trucks, power tools, etc. available in the garage for them to use helps, too. Buying a larger, heavier safe in the first place helps, too.

Are there other experts in this forum on gun safes? We are collecting as much information as we can and seeking experts to help educate about the differences between features and technology and the best gun safes for the money. There really doesn't seem to be enough knowledge out there to compare gun safe reviews sensibly. I would love to pick the brains of some experts to shed more light on the details at gunsafedatabase.com

 

[Rabbit]

I just bought a sturdy safe. Got the upgraded steel, no fire lining. Our FD response times are phenomenal. I was quoted $450 from one company and $300 from another to move it from my garage to bedroom closet and bolt it down. I decided to do it myself. My father in law and i were able to accomplish it quickly and easily using a refrigerator dolly. The safe is 900lbs. Took all of 10 minutes. It would take less time to get it out if you were a thief not caring about the floors or walls. Don't count on weight. I ordered mine with an extra 2 holes, and it's bolted to the concrete with 4 5/8" wedge anchors and to the studs on 2 walls with 1/2" lag bolts. Easily accomplished with a dewalt 20v max cordless hammer drill and quality masonry bit. I also had to remove the closet door frame to fit it through, so a somewhat added level of difficulty to remove.

The construction is solid. Good continuous hot welds. No door gap. What can i say that isn't on their website... It's a steel box with a door. There's no room in the closet for working with large tools like giant pry bars. I do metal work and have tools in the garage which would get into this safe in seconds, but i don't see most crooks knowing how to set up and use a plasma cutter properly, and there's no 220v power anywhere near the safe. Again, layered security is key. Smoke detector above the safe wired into the alarm system.

I'm happy with this safe and while not rated and still a RSC, it seems to be way more secure than your typical gun safe.

 

[Sunshine_Shooter]

I ordered mine with an extra 2 holes, and it's bolted to the concrete with 4 5/8" wedge anchors and to the studs on 2 walls with 1/2" lag bolts....

...[t]here's no room in the closet for working with large tools like giant pry bars. I do metal work and have tools in the garage which would get into this safe in seconds, but i don't see most crooks knowing how to set up and use a plasma cutter properly, and there's no 220v power anywhere near the safe. Again, layered security is key. Smoke detector above the safe wired into the alarm system.

I'm happy with this safe and while not rated and still a RSC, it seems to be way more secure than your typical gun safe.

I'm starting to think that a person would be better off placing a standard RSC in a very advantageous place, bolted into multiple walls/surfaces, heavy duty hardware, away from 220V service, etc, than buying a much more expensive option and just placing it wherever. And for fire rating, I'm not sure how much I care about that. If my whole house goes up in flames and everything is destroyed, either my insurance or the safe company can/will completely reimburse me. That also goes for burglary.