Which works as a better option for a hard use carbine?
Forged or Billet receivers
- Thread starter Matt Landfair
- Start date
A forging is stronger (and typically lighter) than billet. Think of a forging as a molded item that creates the external dimensions as part of the mold. All that is left is to machine the interior dimensions and you are done. With billet you have to machine both interior and exterior dimensions and this stresses the material and thus more material is needed for the same strength of the forging. This is why billet receivers are typically thicker and heavier than forged.
Todd
Todd
Any counter argument to that?
This info is going towards the "chart"
This info is going towards the "chart"
avtech850
Amateur
My opinion is based strictly off of a machinist background and not on carrying a gun for a living so take it for what it is worth.
Billet is made through a forging process, that's why you end up with a big block of grain free metal. When the manufacturer takes delivery of said chunk of billet they will saw of individual chunks of billet to fit in their machining centers.
I am of the opinion that you start getting "Chunkier" recievers when you get into billet simply out of aesthetics and lower run times involved to leave it more squared.
Strength wise, I don't think you are giving up much if any at all when you start looking at a "Quality" billet receiver. Theoretically you'll actually end up with a stronger receiver by going the billet route. The counter to that however is that the original billet has to be quality and preferably from the outside edges of the original chunk.
Billet is made through a forging process, that's why you end up with a big block of grain free metal. When the manufacturer takes delivery of said chunk of billet they will saw of individual chunks of billet to fit in their machining centers.
I am of the opinion that you start getting "Chunkier" recievers when you get into billet simply out of aesthetics and lower run times involved to leave it more squared.
Strength wise, I don't think you are giving up much if any at all when you start looking at a "Quality" billet receiver. Theoretically you'll actually end up with a stronger receiver by going the billet route. The counter to that however is that the original billet has to be quality and preferably from the outside edges of the original chunk.
Isn't there greater weight for same strength with billet?
Ashdown
Newbie
This is not necessarily true. In a forging, the "grain" or lay of the forging is controllable to include not having one at all. Most stock has a uniform grain, depending on its manufacture (extrusion, bar, etc). Also, forgings can be manufactured to a rough shape, minimizing machine time. The down side is the machining requires jigs and fixturing to hold the forgings' unusual shapes. It is usually more difficult to set up and load, therefore leading to more scrapped pieces.
Billet on the other hand, can be dropped into a vise without specialized fixturing because you can buy it in blocks. The entire top and most of periphery can be machined on a simple 3 axis CNC mill in one operation. That's probably why there has been a huge influx of companies making billet receivers to the market. To be fair, you have total control over billet because you can machine it to be aesthetically pleasing or useful, as the machinist/programmer sees fit. Take a Noveske's excellent flared magwell for example, you can choose to do that using billet. The option is not there on a forging because there is not enough excess stock. The same with their trigger guards. The forging has no provision for a trigger guard.
If you had to make a billet version of the forging, the billet version would have to be thicker in places to accommodate for it's grain structure. So, to answer Riafdnal's question, yes. But using billet, you could remove the excess stock that the forging may carry, sssoooo....
Which is better? As long as all the critical dimensions are there, I'm of the opinion it doesn't matter. Now if you're talking material.... Ugh!
Ashdown
Newbie
I do think it would be interesting. I'm looking forward to some of the stuff Jim Hodge says he's got coming up. I'll be curious to see how the weight and final machining will vary (or not) based on the new material he's spec'd out.
avtech850
Amateur
I'm going to have to read up on that. I've been cruising LF for the last year and avoiding forums that discuss stuff like that like a social disease.
Sorry for all the typos. I've been bouncing around in a tractor all day and what looks good one moment doesn't pass muster the second time around.
Sorry for all the typos. I've been bouncing around in a tractor all day and what looks good one moment doesn't pass muster the second time around.
Jim is actively participating in our chart project
Chris Taylor
Random Factor of the K Power
All metals have a grain structure. Quality forgings/billet have a very fine, uniform grain structure, which is preferable.
Quality forgings have a (slightly) higher strength/weight ratio, since the grain of the metal follows the dimensions and shape of the piece. With quality billet, you end up cutting thru/across the natural grain structure of the metal, which pretty much follows the shape of the original piece (square/rectilinear).
This can be seen with S&W wheelguns, which are forged. They can get away with thinner, lighter frames because the forging process allows them a higher strength relative to their weight. Compare them with Ruger wheelguns (cast) and you see the difference. The Rugers are far more robust, but they have a notable increase in size. This doesn't take into account the differences in lock work between the two (Rugers are stronger).
Honestly, the difference betwen forged and billet isn't that big. Guns have been made out of billet steel for a long time, with no issue. Most shooters wouldn't know the difference, even if you stamped it on the gun.
Quality forgings have a (slightly) higher strength/weight ratio, since the grain of the metal follows the dimensions and shape of the piece. With quality billet, you end up cutting thru/across the natural grain structure of the metal, which pretty much follows the shape of the original piece (square/rectilinear).
This can be seen with S&W wheelguns, which are forged. They can get away with thinner, lighter frames because the forging process allows them a higher strength relative to their weight. Compare them with Ruger wheelguns (cast) and you see the difference. The Rugers are far more robust, but they have a notable increase in size. This doesn't take into account the differences in lock work between the two (Rugers are stronger).
Honestly, the difference betwen forged and billet isn't that big. Guns have been made out of billet steel for a long time, with no issue. Most shooters wouldn't know the difference, even if you stamped it on the gun.