does our choice in apparel give away our advantage?

#61
But even with you seeing he had a gun, it brings up the question, so what?
See the reply above yours in regards to someone dressing the part but still looking like a victim. Having a firearm doesn't make you a hard target. Deepthroating your hotdog while you unintentionally revealed to anyone concerned that you have a firearm doesn't make you a hard target. It makes you the victim. If you are more concerned with your cheap food and firearm apparel, then you need a reality check. I've been in NPE's with a full size gun, WML, two knives, and no one thought twice. Other than changing selection due to the environment, concealment is concealment, and it extends beyond your gear selection.
 
#62
See the reply above yours in regards to someone dressing the part but still looking like a victim. Having a firearm doesn't make you a hard target. Deepthroating your hotdog while you unintentionally revealed to anyone concerned that you have a firearm doesn't make you a hard target. It makes you the victim.
In what way did it more expose him to be a victim more than usual though? Do you believe that it made him a target of opportunity? If so, to whom?

The post you reference and your closing statement just make my point for me, your clothing selection really doesn't mean that much compared with how you are acting.
 
#63
In what way did it more expose him to be a victim more than usual though? Do you believe that it made him a target of opportunity? If so, to whom?

The post you reference and your closing statement just make my point for me, your clothing selection really doesn't mean that much compared with how you are acting.
Your clothing absolutely matters. Unless you're in a room full of clones wearing the same thing and acting similarly, minute changes in behavior will be difficult to pick up. Wearing a billboard for your favorite company that indicates you might just like guns, is a reason for one to classify that individual. His clothing choice alerted me. His behavior informed me.

I use him as an example because the encounter was over in seconds. A man approached from the right, I noticed. His shirt adorned with firearm references, I noticed. He bent over, I noticed. His behavior was irrelevant. If it were not for his cool guy apparel, I wouldn't have looked at him any more than necessary.
 
#64
In what way did it more expose him to be a victim more than usual though? Do you believe that it made him a target of opportunity?
Maybe not “more out to be a victim”, but more likely to be the first victim.

If shit goes sideways, would you like to surprise people with the fact that you have a gun or be the first one everyone looks at because they know you have one.

On the other hand and to be blunt, I’d shoot him first if he and a few others simultaneously became a deadly force threat because I know he’s holding.
 
#65
Maybe not “more out to be a victim”, but more likely to be the first victim.
That is my point that has been ignored by others others. You are supposing that this is not a crime of opportunity searching for the easiest target but instead someone looking to simply inflict casualties that has actively been watching the crowd to identify people for which they would engage first. I would argue that in that very small subsection of threat there isn't that much intel gathered and there certainly isn't the presence of mind employed to start counting down an order of threats once a fight starts. Of course if you are fighting a adversary that has the training and resources to properly scout out habits and locations to attack because of who you are then it really doesn't matter how grey man you go because they already know what you are.

All of this is also based off a strawman of someone plastering themselves with pictures of guns and flashing the gun inadvertently in their red holster. The last thing I will say is that unless you are wearing clothing directly designed to elicit a response from the layman, how you act is what determines whether someone remembers you 5 seconds after you have walked by them. If people want to tailor their outfit to whatever they feel gives them the greatest "advantage" over whatever situation they want to imagine then more power to them. I think it is a software issue once you have the bare minimum hardware (i.e. no actual depictions of guns on you which would be first degree of separation versus third degree of separation for a hiking boot or First Spear shirt, and a holster that is black or skin toned and in the correct place) but there is a very large "tactical" industry that proves that my line of thinking isn't the only one so I shall say no more.
 
#66
Everyone here is making good points and it goes to show that there are exact 42 umpteen-google-bajillion variables at play.

Regardless, I’ll be here chilling in my Superman t-shirt and canvas Crocs with a minimum of an IWB Shield and reload.

Come find me if you can, but you may not like what you discover.
 
#67
I have no desire to inform anyone of my current intentions or potential intentions. If you want to wear a shirt that says I LOVE GUNS, more power to you homie, but don't be naive in believing that it's all fairies and magic. People out there do bad things for many reasons.

Saying clothing choice has no bearing on the selection process is like defending the SERPA holster. Well it's not bad... until it is. If you dress like a hooker, you're going to get treated like one. If you dress like a cobra kai cool guy that might be into guns, you will get treated as such.
 

Slim

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#68
I prefer to seperate my "social wardrobe" from anything firearms or the such related. Call it old soul hippyflauge or whatever, but I'm usually rolling a button up and pants of some sort thats a relaxed version of business casual. For home and over with friends, tee and whatever is fine but the graphic tees i have dont see much use.

With that, i can still rock some sort of carry without anyone who isnt with me knowing I've got it. Just another face in the crowd. But it is fun playing "profile that person" based on clothing, cars, body language, ect. And usually too accurate

::shrugs::

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#69
. But it is fun playing "profile that person" based on clothing, cars, body language, ect. And usually too accurate

::shrugs::

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Depends on if you catch me in a suit and the 2018 Lexus; or plaid short sleeve and the 95 Chevy Farm truck. Or on the KTM 950adv. But in my area, it doesnt matter, they're all appropriate

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Pat Tarrant

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#70
Clothing changes might fool some, but not people who pay attention. Body language and awareness (eyes up, scanning, posture, etc) give away far more.

I've been getting asked if I was a marine or cop since long before I put on a uniform just because I (not my clothes) looked like one. Turning that off is a difficult challenge, and it doesn't matter if I'm wearing Grunt Style and 5.11s or a faded sports team T-shirt and jorts.

Bottom line, if you choose to not dress like an off duty cop or soldier because you want to keep a low profile, don't carry yourself like one, either.
 

Slim

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#71
Yes!
Clothing changes might fool some, but not people who pay attention. Body language and awareness (eyes up, scanning, posture, etc) give away far more.

I've been getting asked if I was a marine or cop since long before I put on a uniform just because I (not my clothes) looked like one. Turning that off is a difficult challenge, and it doesn't matter if I'm wearing Grunt Style and 5.11s or a faded sports team T-shirt and jorts.

Bottom line, if you choose to not dress like an off duty cop or soldier because you want to keep a low profile, don't carry yourself like one, either.
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#73
It's funny you bring up about advertising using vehicles. I was going to mention about when I'm driving an see a Magpul or PWS logo sticker on either parked or moving vehicles. To those in our community or even those who simply know what that specific logo stands for, you're just putting out the wrong information.

If we lived in a world where everyone respected everyone else, then I'd say dress in 5.11 top to bottom, plaster your vehicle with Magpul, Noveske and whatever else stickers you want. But since we live in the real world you have to make adult decisions on what you wear or put on your vehicle.

It's a little more dated, but it's not uncommon to see the "I don't dial 911, I use 1911" bumper sticker. That right there is a surefire way to lose in court in a legitimate self-defense shoot not to mention give the media their talking points already.
 

Slim

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#74
This is aside the topic

But yeah that gets said all the time, yet no one can provide case study that proves it. That conversation has been a dead horse beaten, buried, dug up, and beaten again x10.

If someone wants to put stickers/personalized parts/ect on their stuff, this is America. The only real thing it will do is what its intended to do; Advertise.
It's funny you bring up about advertising using vehicles. I was going to mention about when I'm driving an see a Magpul or PWS logo sticker on either parked or moving vehicles. To those in our community or even those who simply know what that specific logo stands for, you're just putting out the wrong information.

If we lived in a world where everyone respected everyone else, then I'd say dress in 5.11 top to bottom, plaster your vehicle with Magpul, Noveske and whatever else stickers you want. But since we live in the real world you have to make adult decisions on what you wear or put on your vehicle.

It's a little more dated, but it's not uncommon to see the "I don't dial 911, I use 1911" bumper sticker. That right there is a surefire way to lose in court in a legitimate self-defense shoot not to mention give the media their talking points already.
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#75
You're right, I'm not saying they shouldn't do it or that it's wrong. I also wasn't saying there was statistical data that shows that a certain percentage of people who wear x-type of apparel or post stickers on their vehicles get burglarized or robbed more than people who don't.

But I have taken burglary reports from residences and personal vehicles that did advertise. I'm not saying it's science, but especially in places where crime is a likely possibility, it's probably best not to tell everyone you have x, y or z. If you live in a part of the country that still understands the concept of community then you're likely able to post as many stickers as you want since chances are you'll know the guy/gal down the street.
 

Slim

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#76
Oh no, I agree with that part. Advertising works both ways without a doubt. It's a big neon sign. Which is the whole of the thread.

It's the last paragraph of losing a court case over a bumper sticker I was talking about. Social vindication sure, guilty on a justified unlikely.

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#77
So what I'm getting from this post is: There are a million variables revolving around how someone should dress to remain the gray man, but then again it may be just body language that gives us away, and then again, maybe it's my ultra gray man kuhl pants and button up, but then again it's probably the way I stand, but THAT GUY over there is wearing a gun related shirt so he's a no-go at this event. From what I can tell this seems less of a problem solving experience and more of an opportunity to pontificate over how much more "gray man" we are than the guy wearing the BRCC stuff. If you look at the other thread regarding what is good clothing to wear (I'd link it if I could find it), everybody seems to center finally on a gray man uniform. Oh, carharts, kuhl, prAna, north face, button up, whatever, ya'll know what I'm talking about. If you are dressing intentionally for the purpose of practicality and concealability, you're probably gonna end up with the same CCW uniform. Even if you don't your body language is gonna give it way. Do we have any actual evidence of the clothing being the deciding factor other than undercover law enforcement who are interacting directly with people who should be paranoid?