does our choice in apparel give away our advantage?

[kmorgan]

So... at dinner this evening, I observed something. Next table over, the epitome of urban camo guy. Not a single logo anywhere. Subtle clothing. Average haircut. The absolute model of visual norms and averages. No one in the room gave him a second glance. Next to the word "unobtrusive" in the dictionary, this guy's picture.

But every two minutes or so, his eyes came up from the table and with very little, very casual head movement, scanned the room from the front entrance to the rear exit past the kitchen. I don't think he meant for me to realize he'd caught me observing, either. But I caught his sweep pause on me just a hair longer than anyone else, even though I was being pretty low key with my own observation.

Was that dude armed? No clue. Was he highly trained? No clue. But that dude was a canine. He was not nervous. He was not afraid. He was not "projecting confidence" or anything else. But that was a canine.

If there's some art to this stuff, I'm all ears (though I understand for some reason discussion of it is banned). I don't know much about it. I'm pretty damned far from the most observant guy on the planet. But I still believe we spot each other.

Where can I go to learn more? I'm a rarity on the internets. I'm willing to be wrong.

 

[Matt Landfair]

Step one - Know the signs of someone carrying a gun. Know behaviors and habits of someone carrying a gun (constantly tugging shirt tales, or physically touching the weapon through their clothes). Now - don't do those things.


...aaaand I will stop right there.

 

[kmorgan]

Haha, well, I've used those signs as a recruiting tool. (pro 2a political stuffs.) We had a booth set up at a major event with several thousand people a day moving past. I told all of our people working the booth what to look for. That little knife clip sticking out of the pocket of a pair of cargo pants was damn near 100% accurate. Other stuff too. But man, that little clip + cargos...

 

[SPQR476]

There are certainly tells apart from 5.11s, photographer vests, "tactical boots", Velcro patches, and gun company T-Shirts, but...those indicators certainly make it easier. Yes, the muscular bearded guy with facial scars and tattoos is likely to stick out no matter what he's wearing, but there's no need to wear a neon billboard that screams "GUN!"

 

[ScottPM09]

Although the career criminals may be well aware of cop indicator clothing, the general populace, and likely the criminals, pick up on other signs as well. When people meet me, they think I am a soldier (which usually isn't bad considering my close proximity to Ft. Benning). However, when I ask them what makes them think that, they don't refer to my clothes. They tell me it is how I present myself, how I walk, and how I look around and at the people in my vicinity. This is pretty much spot on with what Kmorgan was saying. Its usually quite subtle in our minds but blatantly obvious for other observers.

To help lessen this, I enlisted the help of my girlfriend (who actually is stationed at Benning) to quietly call me out when she sees me doing these characteristic traits. I was amazed at how often I did them without even noticing particularly when we are in crowded areas! Her help comes in real handy when traveling overseas together, let alone having a night on the town.

 

[PM07]

I posted this on the bookofface in the open carry thread but I thought it relevant here also.

" I didn't see if mentioned but you can't/shouldn't have this discussion without talking about factors like the victim selection process. You can be wearing a LAV 1911 on a Ares belt in some RCS kydex, Mountain Hardwear pants and Solomon's but if you look like a victim, you will be a victim. How bad guys perceive their targets has a big part in whom becomes victims. If you project confidence, awareness..lethality for lack of a better term, they will pick someone else. Regardless of if you are open carrying or not. Just my opinion based on my experiences."

 

[patriot_man]

Suburban yuppie camo for me--TNF, Patagonia, Polo, Carhart, etc...

With yuppie camo like that I wouldn't be able to pick you out when I'm in Palo Alto! How else can I take part in your cool armor tests lol.

 

[patriot_man]

Truth be told I wear yuppie camo like Doc and I live in the same area.

However when shooting, hiking, or doing casual activities I wear my "cool guy" shirts lol.

 

[Bourneshooter]

Sometimes I want to put off the air of "don't mess with me" to keep dirtbags away. That will help with the minor threats of course.

Most part, its easier to look "normal" for my area. I can choose to wear jeans, carharts, t-shirts or look like a BLM hippie with REI clothes. Neither will matter though since locals know me as a cop anyways. I still try to not stand out to those who don't know me.

 

[kmorgan]

I posted this on the bookofface in the open carry thread but I thought it relevant here also.

" I didn't see if mentioned but you can't/shouldn't have this discussion without talking about factors like the victim selection process. You can be wearing a LAV 1911 on a Ares belt in some RCS kydex, Mountain Hardwear pants and Solomon's but if you look like a victim, you will be a victim. How bad guys perceive their targets has a big part in whom becomes victims. If you project confidence, awareness..lethality for lack of a better term, they will pick someone else. Regardless of if you are open carrying or not. Just my opinion based on my experiences."

This has pretty much been the mantra of martial arts instructors as long as I can remember, and honestly, I think in most US environments, it's probably good advice. However, I've been places where that attracts WAY too much attention from a REALLY bad crowd, and can put you in a shit sandwich real quick. One particular set of housing projects comes to mind, where someone causing the "tough guy" to have a really bad day would earn a lot of local cred for any given banger. My cousin works in that project pretty regularly, and I really think he's survived by being innocuous. He's the kind of guy you don't even notice in a room when you KNOW he's in the room somewhere. I dunno how the hell he does that. It's a gift.

 

[MrMurphy]

I'd have to agree on the body language over clothing....

I'm usually wearing a polo or buttondown with Vertx or 5.11s or similar, and some Merrell hiking boots. More or less the "REI" look.

Shocking, I was an REI employee (and a damned successful one) for a year plus prior to the academy. Mine was probably one of the few where half the staff and management, while being REI hippies, were also shooters and carriers....

The body language is still the giveaway in the end.

 

[Bourneshooter]

I'd have to agree on the body language over clothing....

I'm usually wearing a polo or buttondown with Vertx or 5.11s or similar, and some Merrell hiking boots. More or less the "REI" look.

Shocking, I was an REI employee (and a damned successful one) for a year plus prior to the academy. Mine was probably one of the few where half the staff and management, while being REI hippies, were also shooters and carriers....

The body language is still the giveaway in the end.

I wish there was one nearby so I could work part time to wear that cool green vest... I mean get the employee discount and a little extra cash each month to spend at REI.

 

[Runcible]

I'll write more when I can sit down at a computer. To lead: I think that dismissing the whole effort towards innocuousness is less then what we are capable of, that regionalism is important in this, and that there will be common context with a lot of the details.

If there is a behavioral tell, there is likely a way or curriculum to suppress or reduce it.

The desire to project zanshin, victim deselection, or badassitude may be to detriment for certain walks of life - at least at certain times of day. For example, a member of a dedicated surveillance team might need to be 100% scaryman during their commute or while detaining; but have to switch that off while they have the eye or are at dinner with the family.

Clothes are not all of the profile(s) that I believe one should avoid; but I believe they are still worthy of attention and alteration to minimize signature.

On context, it's ok to not wholly fit in with the local color - as long as you fit in as something more desirable then what you really are.

Trying to hard to go native can itself be an indicator, depending on what you are up to, and where.

Context, context, context...

 

[kmorgan]

Context, context, context...

I concur. I think that suppressing our physical language is far more difficult than suppressing our visual language (clothing). I don't disagree with the notion that there are circumstances where it makes a lot of sense to suppress both. My cousin the natural ghost keeps coming to mind. He does all the stuff we're talking about in this thread completely subconsciously. Always has. It's worked well for him.

 

[Ryan St.Jean]

I think dressing like you envision (probably wrongly) SF dudes who you have a man crush on gives away that you are probably carrying a gun.

Obviously lifestyle shirts and hats are a give away.

Fishing/ photographer vests unless you are actively fishing on on a safari are a dead give away.

I wear jeans and normal shirts in the winter and shorts in the summer.

 

[Nathan Mack]

Criminals know 511 and similar.

Correct. Cops wear it, corrections cops wear it, probation agents wear them, etc.

 

[Gypsy EDC]

There is certainly an LEO "non uniform" uniform particularly for younger ex mil. Foot wear is the biggest clue IMO, haircut next.

As far as average Joe goes get a good holster and keep your f' ing hands off it. Wear appropriate clothes for your environment.

It's not rocket science

 

[Pat Tarrant]

Bringing this back up for a couple points:
Most people are oblivious to what you wear unless you're between their eyes and their phone, or are so switched off they won't notice a thing.

To those looking, your body language gives away far more than your clothes. I can count the times people have thanked me for service or said Semper Fi, so on and so on, even if I'm just wearing a sports jersey and jeans or something equally not at all tactical/cool. That even happened before I was in the military...people who were observant saw me body language, me looking around and being aware of my surroundings and just assumed I must be military or a cop.

How we carry ourselves is often far more of a giveaway than what we wear, and can be far more difficult to conceal.

 

[Ryan St.Jean]

Bringing this back up for a couple points:
Most people are oblivious to what you wear unless you're between their eyes and their phone, or are so switched off they won't notice a thing.

To those looking, your body language gives away far more than your clothes. I can count the times people have thanked me for service or said Semper Fi, so on and so on, even if I'm just wearing a sports jersey and jeans or something equally not at all tactical/cool. That even happened before I was in the military...people who were observant saw me body language, me looking around and being aware of my surroundings and just assumed I must be military or a cop.

How we carry ourselves is often far more of a giveaway than what we wear, and can be far more difficult to conceal.

1- I think people notice clothes/ footwear as well as posture/ presence.

 

[Pat Tarrant]

I'm not saying clothes don't get noticed. But just as the male form and female form can be identified by shape and movement at further distances than you can identify features, body language is generally seen (by those paying attention) before details about clothing, and is harder to change.