Discussion - Is there such a thing as “too much” high-end magnification on a LPVO?

[rudukai13]

I’m excited to start seeing scopes in the 1-15x/1-20x ranges in the future. The scope manufacturers are starting to figure out how to put some really large magnification ranges into reasonably compact packages.

Imagine one scope that you could mount on every rifle you own - your SBR/Pistol, your patrol rifle, your DMR, your battle rifle, and your precision bolt gun - without handicapping the effective range of any of them. Hell the Vortex 1–10x (and the Atibal X 1-10x before it) is getting close to the high-end range that would make it viable for long range precision already

 

[pointblank4445]

I’m excited to start seeing scopes in the 1-15x/1-20x ranges in the future. The scope manufacturers are starting to figure out how to put some really large magnification ranges into reasonably compact packages.

Imagine one scope that you could mount on every rifle you own - your SBR/Pistol, your patrol rifle, your DMR, your battle rifle, and your precision bolt gun - without handicapping the effective range of any of them. Hell the Vortex 1–10x (and the Atibal X 1-10x before it) is getting close to the high-end range that would make it viable for long range precision already

Reticles are already a challenge in 3-20x optics and 1-8x optics for usability and design. In the 1-8/10x I've yet to see one that pulls its weight all the way through without a design crutch.

 

[Pat Tarrant]

While they're not ready for prime time yet, it's only a matter of time before scopes start using digital displays and digital magnification to augment optical magnification. This could also address reticle issues. There are absolutely challenges left to be overcome with any sort of digital display and optical sensor arrangement, but it's bound to happen. Aside from any lag issues, I can see feature creep being a big problem with such an optic, be it more advanced targeting systems, articulating reticles, and so on. However, it would solve some issues with purely optical scopes.

 

[pointblank4445]

While they're not ready for prime time yet, it's only a matter of time before scopes start using digital displays and digital magnification to augment optical magnification. This could also address reticle issues. There are absolutely challenges left to be overcome with any sort of digital display and optical sensor arrangement, but it's bound to happen. Aside from any lag issues, I can see feature creep being a big problem with such an optic, be it more advanced targeting systems, articulating reticles, and so on. However, it would solve some issues with purely optical scopes.

I think/thought similarly but don't know when digital imagery would be up to the task. What I thought might be the next step is stuff like the Hensold ZO where right now it's a 4x or 6x fixed consider this in a 2.5-20 that can sync with something like the AB tech can between the Kestrel, Sig Kilo, Garmin etc. Now imagine your plain jane duplex optic (because some would want that if/when the tech or batteries die) has an enhanced CMR style reticle grid is spit out for a desired wind/range interval. While the wind is always the X-factor of data input, you want it to do 4mph intervals at every 100y out to 1000y and 20mph....BAM....it's hud projected onto the existing view on top of the etched reticle. Non of that tracking point BS that controls ignition still leaving enough versatility with the shooter.

I base that on absolutely nothing but wonder if the digital will ever be prime-time enough and cost effective enough in our lifetime.

What I would RATHER see at the current than companies bumping the top end 2x more every 5-10 years is take existing, old tech and scale that shit down. Give me a 1-4x in something the size/weight of an Aimpoint PRO (an no, not a fucking ELCAN) that is a full LPVO. Or give me a better 1-6 the size of that tiny ass NF 1-4x NXS. Mechanically difficult I'm sure but not long ago only the big dogs ventured outside the 1:4 zoom ratio into 1:5. 1:8 was super difficult and here we are knocking on the door of 1:10...so I refuse to believe it can't be done. I want them to keep pushing but wonder if it's not taking away from other areas that could be addressed. BUT what is wanted does not always match what is needed. In that, I think this 1-10x Razor 3 is going to highlight for some people that are new to the precision game and optics larger than 6x that their deficiencies do not lie with a mere lack of magnification.

 

[Pat Tarrant]

I definitely like where you're going. I'd love to have a dependable 8-10oz 1-4 optic with Aimpoint like illumination with an Eotech style reticle and a good eye box. Sadly, I don't think we're going to see that either, as everyone wants to push feature sets, not refinement and evolution of yesterday's 1-4's. I'm not even sure how long we'll see new 1-6's come to market. I'd lay money down that it'll be a race for the cheap 1-10s and 1-12s with the quality of a Strike Eagle, rather than higher end optics lines making optically and mechanically superior 1-4s and 1-6s. Time will tell.

 

[pointblank4445]

Oh, no doubt Pat...I would not take that bet because that's where the industry is heading whether I/we like it or not. Despite being a S&B fan, they damn near fell off the map going full Simple Jack in pushing those capabilities but they later rounded back and gave us things like the Ultra Short series (of which Kahles, NF, Leupold, ZCO would also have contenders in that niche). The industry HAS shown us that they can round back and hit those niche's that aren't the LPVO and the latest 56mm monstrosity. But that widening space between the ever-shrinking RDS and ever-growing LPVO will likely not be touched.

 

[pointblank4445]

@Pat Tarrant

You see this:
http://soldiersystems.net/2020/04/2...aV68yMhmJVoRhvwTeP6VTbgUbtZYlDLeOLAlFp7h9a-xs

 

[rudukai13]

@Pat Tarrant

You see this:
http://soldiersystems.net/2020/04/2...aV68yMhmJVoRhvwTeP6VTbgUbtZYlDLeOLAlFp7h9a-xs

I was just coming here to post that link in this thread. Sounds like Army wants to equip every NGSW rifle with an electro-enhanced 1-8x LPVO.

Also I know aesthetics isn’t really important when discussing rifle scopes, but that said - That thing just looks so sci-fi badass;



I love it. But I’d be shocked if it’d cost anything less than $5,000 on the open market

 

[pointblank4445]

I was just coming here to post that link in this thread. Sounds like Army wants to equip every NGSW rifle with an electro-enhanced 1-8x LPVO.

Also I know aesthetics isn’t really important when discussing rifle scopes, but that said - That thing just looks so sci-fi badass;

View attachment 6385

I love it. But I’d be shocked if it’d cost anything less than $5,000 on the open market

Oh...it looks like a monstrosity on top of that SCAR, and coming from the owner of not one but TWO Dual CC's...price of that tech is probably in the "F-Dat noise" level....

 

[SmElly]

I definitely like where you're going. I'd love to have a dependable 8-10oz 1-4 optic with Aimpoint like illumination with an Eotech style reticle and a good eye box. Sadly, I don't think we're going to see that either, as everyone wants to push feature sets, not refinement and evolution of yesterday's 1-4's. I'm not even sure how long we'll see new 1-6's come to market. I'd lay money down that it'll be a race for the cheap 1-10s and 1-12s with the quality of a Strike Eagle, rather than higher end optics lines making optically and mechanically superior 1-4s and 1-6s. Time will tell.

What current offering most fits that "weighs and performs really similarly to a red dot"? My mind goes to the accupoint series due to lower weight and unlimited illumination (but frankly I don't know s**t about LPVOs)

 

[pointblank4445]

What current offering most fits that "weighs and performs really similarly to a red dot"? My mind goes to the accupoint series due to lower weight and unlimited illumination (but frankly I don't know s**t about LPVOs)

Ok, here's the problem...
From my experience, for a standard weight carbine (before you start adding cans and MAWLs and shit), the literal tipping point for balance with an LPVO is somewhere around 19-20ish ounces pending mount weight and minor differences in barrel length/profile/construction. This is why many are happy with a 16.9oz Kahles or 17oz NF NX8 (or even that little 14.5 oz 1-4 Accupoint) as it still maintains a reasonably balanced (not top-heavy) rifle. 21-24oz optics (especially if you raise up in a higher mount) can feel off-balanced to some and why many will opt to pair this with a heavier rifle like an SPR, SR25, or something that's already a pig like the 416/MR556. This is all minutiae and by all means not rules. Dudes who know what they want obviously put up with a few more ounces for various capabilities. These are just general trends I've seen with guys new to LPVO's in terms of weight and their perceptions of handling.

The rub is that optic capability is largely dependent on magnification range and illumination/reticle usability. Obviously, magnification is a factor in size (thus affecting weight). The NX8 is proof that there are trade-offs to scaling things down in terms of tube size/length...at least at this point in time.

The other factor is what mechanics are used to obtain whatever dot/illumination the scope has.
The Accupoint mentioned uses tritium and fiber optics that are obviously light
The Razor HD 1-6 uses a combination wire reticle in conjunction with illuminated fiber optics (but their overall construction is generally heavy for their class)
Most Schmidt & Benders basically use the same tech as Aimpoint and you have a mini red dot crammed into the optic...and obviously this tech is more expensive obviously
And then you have varying degrees of hi-power illumination on etched reticles on things like the CQBSS H27D, Nightforce, and I believe the new Vortex 1-10 and the Kahles

Each one has their pro's and con's in terms of weight, reliability and practical functionality.

 

[Vinsynd]

Somewhat inline with what Pat was saying about digital scopes the Revic 4-28x scope also pushed by Gunwerks is a pretty slick application of digital augmentation to a regular optical scope. It’s not a digital reticle but it’s a digital in scope display for dialing range and wind based on built-in sensors and a ballistic calculator.