Diagnosis Please

[Freedom Forged]

Second range trip with the RMR.

Last night I dry fired a while. This morning I dry fired more before going to the range. And as my luck always goes the RMR flickered. Dry fired a few more times and it got dim then bright. Why would I expect the get one that was flawless....

Even with the Battle Werks sealing plate I cut a small piece of plastic and shimmed the battery. I also pried the clip out a bit. Worked ok at the range I hope it continues to work well. Pisses me of to pay that much money for something and have to make it work.

Anyway, I had to re-zero the optic. I zeroed at 15 yards from a rest.

This was the last target of the day. 15 Yards Standing. I obviously had one flyer.
It's not great and it's not where I want to be but please have a look and tell me what I need to work on other than more dry fire time.
Thanks Very Much
FF

 

[Fatboy]

Someone more knowledgeable will be along shortly, I'm sure. In the meantime, here's my .02:

Assuming the same point of aim with each shot fired, I see what looks like 2 issues. The first is pushing the gun left. Assuming a right handed shooter, with a typical Glock trigger, you are pushing the gun left when firing. You can solve that a few ways- more finger or less finger on the trigger and applying more pressure with your non firing band's thumb along the barrel. Experiment with it until you find what allows you to squeeze without disturbing the sights.

The second thing that it looks like is vertical stringing. That implies either anticipating the recoil (aka the flinch). More firing will help with that. The stringing could also be from firing too quickly (ie smashing the trigger as soon as you see the dot, instead of waiting for the dot to fall back into place on the target where you are aiming.)

Kinda hard to give a real diagnosis without actually seeing you shoot, but if I were to bet on it, that would be my speculation.

 

[JHaddock07]

What did the "Zero" target group look like once you were satisfied with that zero?

What was your cadence like for the string of fire that you have in the photo?

Were you calling your flyers?

Are you keeping a consistent ammo? I.E. only 115 gr. / 124 gr. And 147 gr. training ammo? Or is there a mix of stuff thrown together?


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[Freedom Forged]

What did the "Zero" target group look like once you were satisfied with that zero?

I didn't snap a pic but, after my last adjustment I shot a string of three from the rest and I was satisfied. On a B8 I had two in the X and one in the 10 close to the X.

What was your cadence like for the string of fire that you have in the photo?

I didn't time it but I won't be far off in guessing 60 to 7o seconds.

Were you calling your flyers?

I called the farthest right flyer buy that's it.

Are you keeping a consistent ammo? I.E. only 115 gr. / 124 gr. And 147 gr. training ammo? Or is there a mix of stuff thrown together?

The ammo is consistent 115 gr FMJ RN factory.
Thanks FF


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[Longeye]

Were you aiming at the face or a particular spot like tip of nose or corner of eye? Aim small, miss small is a valid concept. It relies on having a small acceptable wobble zone around a small, easily seen aiming point.

My suggestion is to shoot 1" dots at 7 yards slow fire until you can place five shots inside the dot consistently.

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[Freedom Forged]

Were you aiming at the face or a particular spot like tip of nose or corner of eye? Aim small, miss small is a valid concept. It relies on having a small acceptable wobble zone around a small, easily seen aiming point.

My suggestion is to shoot 1" dots at 7 yards slow fire until you can place five shots inside the dot consistently.

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Thanks @Longeye , I'll try the 1" dot next trip. To answer your question my aiming point was the center of the blue circle in the red area that represents the cerrebellum.

 

[Longeye]

That is likely part of the problem. "Center of the blue circle" is not small or precise.
Your aiming point should be no bigger than your bullet diameter.

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[Freedom Forged]

@Longeye @Jordan Haddock @Fatboy and anyone else. I had planned eventually to install an Overwatch Precision DAT 2 trigger. Considering what you guys have said along with Longeye's suggestion on the 1" dots at 7 do you think the OWP trigger would help improve my issues? FYI I have been dry firing my ass off.
Thanks guys! FF

 

[JHaddock07]

@Freedom Forged It looks to me (based on what you've written) that you're having a few small issues that for the most part have been addressed by others in the thread. I would suggest that in your dry fire routine, you try putting a coin laid flat across the front sight post. The idea, would be to "break the shot" while maintaining balance of the coin on the front sight post. What I personally have found this to help is the "flinch" response that can cause the POI to shift low or below the POA. Basically it's your body tensing up just prior to the shot breaking because it's aware that a small explosion is about to happen. Do you have a structured dry fire program in place?

Something to consider is your grip as well... Whenever you get a chance to get the pistol back in your hands, try to make sure that you're exerting grip pressure from all of your fingers especially the pinky / ring fingers. I've found that once people actively try to increase pressure from there, that the "flinch" is greatly reduced if not eliminated completely.

Live fire wise, the principle of "aim small, miss small" is absolutely true, if you go to pistol-training.com or I believe there's even a PDF file in the training section that will have a "Dot Torture" drill that is an awesome culmination of not only accuracy and fundamentals, but also reloads, target transitions, draw stroke, etc. that may be getting a little ahead of things, but if nothing else you've got a printable target with plenty of small target zones to aim for that you can simply push out to whatever distance.

Regarding the purchase of an aftermarket trigger.. The OWP is a nice trigger indeed, and I believe it will help in decreasing some of the issues, although it seems that it would be more of a hardware solution to a software problem. What I mean by that, is if you're still having issues with the "flinch" prior to the shot breaking it's only going to be marginally reduced by having a trigger with a shorter travel distance or a more "crisp" trigger.

 

[Fatboy]

A better than factory trigger will help some, but it won't be as noticeable if you don't correct the trigger squeeze issues first. What I mean by that is a lighter shorter trigger stroke will absolutely shrink the group size. It will not help pushing the rounds to the left or the anticipation causing the vertical stringing. If you're set on swapping trigger parts, look at a Glock Minus connector. It will give you a lighter feel with out dramatically changing parts out. (It's cheap too.) Otherwise, keep dry firing and your stock trigger will smooth out in time.

For the record, I own several Glocks and use another still for duty. All have factory triggers, and put rounds generally where I want them to, as long as the loose nut running the trigger is doing his part.

 

[Freedom Forged]

@Freedom Forged It looks to me (based on what you've written) that you're having a few small issues that for the most part have been addressed by others in the thread. I would suggest that in your dry fire routine, you try putting a coin laid flat across the front sight post. The idea, would be to "break the shot" while maintaining balance of the coin on the front sight post. What I personally have found this to help is the "flinch" response that can cause the POI to shift low or below the POA. Basically it's your body tensing up just prior to the shot breaking because it's aware that a small explosion is about to happen. Do you have a structured dry fire program in place?

Something to consider is your grip as well... Whenever you get a chance to get the pistol back in your hands, try to make sure that you're exerting grip pressure from all of your fingers especially the pinky / ring fingers. I've found that once people actively try to increase pressure from there, that the "flinch" is greatly reduced if not eliminated completely.

Live fire wise, the principle of "aim small, miss small" is absolutely true, if you go to pistol-training.com or I believe there's even a PDF file in the training section that will have a "Dot Torture" drill that is an awesome culmination of not only accuracy and fundamentals, but also reloads, target transitions, draw stroke, etc. that may be getting a little ahead of things, but if nothing else you've got a printable target with plenty of small target zones to aim for that you can simply push out to whatever distance.

Regarding the purchase of an aftermarket trigger.. The OWP is a nice trigger indeed, and I believe it will help in decreasing some of the issues, although it seems that it would be more of a hardware solution to a software problem. What I mean by that, is if you're still having issues with the "flinch" prior to the shot breaking it's only going to be marginally reduced by having a trigger with a shorter travel distance or a more "crisp" trigger.

Thanks Jordan, to answer your question, my dry fire routine since I got the RMR is to concentrate on pulling the trigger straight back while pointing the pistol at something white or light colored and watching and trying to reduce/eliminate any dot deviation.
FF

 

[Longeye]

I will note that everything about the RMR will highlight poor technique in ways that legacy sights didn't.

Look at this as a shot process. Forget about split times, reloads, malfunction procedures for a while. Slow way down, and focus on each step that has to happen for the shot to successfully arrive at the desired point.

Work through this by the numbers, starting at Count One in the holster, where you first establish your firing grip. Take a solid minute to go from C1 to C5. Look at the areas that are not perfect. Go back to the notes from your first or second professional pistol class you took. Do the basics right.

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[Freedom Forged]

@Longeye @Fatboy @Jordan Haddock and anyone else that can offer help.

I did not realize that I have a pre ignition flinch. When I went to the range today I picked up a magazine that had two rounds left as I picked it up a nice looking young lady in the lane next to me interrupted me with a question. Being more than happy to help regardless of the issue I laid the magazine down. Being rightfully distracted I inserted an empty mag and released the slide. I pressed out, settled the red dot on the target and pressed the trigger. THEIR IT WAS, BIG AS LIFE! A downward flinch! I could not believe what I just discovered. I was pissed!

I noticed in the past that my most accurate shot was the one that surprised me when it broke. That one was always dead nuts on. I don't flinch when I dry fire as witnessed by the dot not moving on the break.

Man I am so pissed off!! How can I fix or at least mitigate this flinch?
FF

 

[JHaddock07]

Refer back to my first and second paragraph from earlier responses. I can tell you that you don't want the shot to "surprise you" that to me is negligent. You should be fully aware of when that gun is going to go "bang". I'm not saying that YOU are negligent, and I absolutely understand what you mean by the shot surprising you. It's more of a general statement for follow on readers that may stumble into this thread later.


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[Nicco]

Switching gears a bit, I have a completely unmodify RMR 07 with the regular Trijicon sealing/spring plate on a Glock 23. I had some flickering issues after I first got it, but I resolved it when I discovered that it was because one of the mounting screws was a tad too loose. I haven't had an issue with flickering since. Bearing in mind that it's only been maybe 6 or 7 months and a relatively small round count.

 

[Fatboy]

Refer back to my first and second paragraph from earlier responses. I can tell you that you don't want the shot to "surprise you" that to me is negligent. You should be fully aware of when that gun is going to go "bang". I'm not saying that YOU are negligent, and I absolutely understand what you mean by the shot surprising you. It's more of a general statement for follow on readers that may stumble into this thread later.


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Agreed with the above. I'm of the opinion that the shot firing should not be a surprise in any way shape or form because if you weren't squeezing the trigger, the gun shouldn't have gone bang.

As far as fixing the flinch, a couple of ways I have seen: 1. Take a range partner with you and have them load a live round (or keep the chamber empty) while you look away so you don't know what's coming. When you squeeze the shot, do it one round at a time, focusing on the fundamentals. The gun will either click or bang, and after a few rounds the flinch should lessen. Just make sure your helper puts a loaded mag back in the gun each time so that you can't tell by the weight.

2. Load up a few dummy rounds in between regular rounds in your mags and shoot as normal. That way gives you the added training for getting your gun back into operation. Just keep in mind that some ranges might not want you bending over to recover training rounds.

Something else to keep in mind is if the flinch is happening at the end of a day's training, then it may just be a symptom of your hand and arms being tired and needing a break.

 

[Freedom Forged]

Thanks again guys @Jordan Haddock I re-read you post and I appreciate it, it makes sense. @Fatboy I normally take 6-10 full mags with me to the range. I have 10 dummy rounds. I'm going to get my son to load the mags for me and mix in the dummies as you suggested. I won't have a clue when they are coming up. Thanks again guys. I'll let you know how it goes.
FF

 

[Freedom Forged]

So, I had my son load 4 15 round mags. I asked him to put 2-4 snap caps in each. The result was stark. I wanted to video it but my DA forgot to bring the tripod. But suffice it to say the flinch was very noticeable on 9 of the 10 snap caps. 1 wasn't so bad. I have dry fired at night till my hands are sore. I'm as smooth as can be dry firing witnessed by the red dot on my RMR. So why doesn't this translate to live fire?

Steve Fisher told me the way to fix it was "to just fucking stop doing it" well thats what I want to do but it's not happening.

This is 15 yards slow fire.

The 3 holes in the left side is where I ripped the B8 out of a notebook.

 

[JHaddock07]

Conscious & Subconscious understanding of the different environments being dry fire v.s. live fire.

Again, gripping the gun tight enough that when your sympathetic response to the fact that a small explosion is about to happen takes over, you can't grip the gun any tighter thus defeating the "flinch". Unless of course I'm way off base, in which case I would assume that any of the "heavy hitting" instructors that frequent the forum may be able to offer the information that I do not currently obtain.

Are you shooting reloads or factory new ammunition? I recently discovered the phenomenon of poorly cast projectiles causing drastic POI shifts beyond 7 yards. For reference I average a 97 at 25 yds. For the timed rapid fire course on the B8 targets, but with this batch of reloads that my buddy let me run, I had 3 rounds drop into the 7 ring. Naturally I'll be switching back to Speer Lawman 147 gr. and won't be looking back.


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[Freedom Forged]

Conscious & Subconscious understanding of the different environments being dry fire v.s. live fire.

Again, gripping the gun tight enough that when your sympathetic response to the fact that a small explosion is about to happen takes over, you can't grip the gun any tighter thus defeating the "flinch". Unless of course I'm way off base, in which case I would assume that any of the "heavy hitting" instructors that frequent the forum may be able to offer the information that I do not currently obtain.

Are you shooting reloads or factory new ammunition? I recently discovered the phenomenon of poorly cast projectiles causing drastic POI shifts beyond 7 yards. For reference I average a 97 at 25 yds. For the timed rapid fire course on the B8 targets, but with this batch of reloads that my buddy let me run, I had 3 rounds drop into the 7 ring. Naturally I'll be switching back to Speer Lawman 147 gr. and won't be looking back.


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Once again @Jordan Haddock I appreciate your help. An average 97 on timed B8 at 25 is pretty damn good IMO.

I am shooting factory rounds. Now, they are target rounds, nothing special, 115 gr round nose. I do reload and I do shoot reloads but not when I'm sighting in or trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong.