Developing hand speed - how to progress to the next level

Tore Haugli

Moderator
Moderator
#1
If this should be in the handgun forum, mods feel free to move.

I feel that my draw and slide lock reload has sort of reached a peak speedwise - and I know that I can go faster.
I just don't know how to develop that speed.

I am not slow - slow, but I feel I can't get my hands to move any faster. I make it a point not to go full retard, but to present in a controlled manner, not just throw the gun forward.

My goals are a sub-1 second draw and hit at 7 meters, and a 1 second reload.

I dry fire both my draw and reloads regularly, and find that my dry fire times are slightly faster than live fire.

With my draw I am pretty fast at establishing my grip on the pistol. It is from that point and until full presentation I just seem to slow down.

Is the solution what I think it is, just more repetition and training, or does anyone have good tips on developing my hand speed?
 
#3
A few questions before I proffer a long response.

Is this out of an open top USPSA type holster/mag pouches?

What is your draw/reload time at now?

What is the end state of your goal? Faster stage performance? Better/faster CCW draw?
 

Tore Haugli

Moderator
Moderator
#4
Open top holster and mag pouches, yes.

I think my live fire draw is at about 1.25 first shot in the A-zone at 7, and my dry fire about 1.15. Reload not sure, as it's been awhile since I clocked it, but I'll venture a guess that it's maybe just under 2 secs.
I'm in a cabin in the wintery mountains at the moment, but will hopefully get to the range on Friday or Saturday.

My end goal is to progress through the bump in the road that appears to me to be slow hand speed. Ideally it will lead to a faster first shot, and faster manipulations (reloads for example).

Here is a video clip from December, of me dryfiring - draw stroke particularly:


I did not get a proper grip on the last one, my support hand was too high on the gun.
The timer was at I think 1,2 secs, and I am aiming at a simulated 10 yard target.
 
#5
From watching the video, I’d say everything is in place for you to get to a 1 second draw. The biggest hurdle that appears in the video is the tension in your shoulders and neck when you start your draw.
Muscles that are tense to start with have to relax for a split second in order to then apply force in a different direction. When trying to do something fast, the tendency is start tensed up and ready to go. This causes a slight delay when your brain has to change the direction of the movement and force.
To speed up the hand movement portion, I would try to have your upper body remain more neutral throughout the draw. A good example is like this Max Michel video. Notice how his head remains erect throughout, his shoulders relaxed and limits movement to his hands.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGgiymq7me8
I would also try to get the gun into the plane of view of your eyes sooner to allow you to align the sights and make any micro corrections as the gun rides the rail towards the target. This would allow your shot to be fired sooner, possibly even before the gun is completely at extension.
Overall, a 1.2 second first shot is very good. At this point, you’re looking for tiny efficiencies in the path of the gun and more relaxed movement. Tension is the enemy of fast open-loop movements.
Also, make sure you’re listening for the “B” in Beeeeeeeepp.

On the practical side of things, keeping your head erect helps keep open your field of view to maintain SA and a relaxed posture allows you to move quickly off line.
 

Tore Haugli

Moderator
Moderator
#6
Thanks, appreciate the feedback.

I guess I recognize what you are saying about tensing up when trying to go fast, and how that actually makes you slower.
Will definitely work on that aspect.
 
#7
One drill I used when working on hand / draw speed was to take the target out of the equation and work on natural point of aim.

At 7 yards I turned the target over white side out and my only goal was to hit the white paper. Taking most accuracy out of it, I did a couple practice draws with my eyes closed to confirm NPOA and made body adjustments. I then tried to get a shot on the paper as quick as possible. At most I was superimposing the gun on the paper.

This was done from my duty rig ALS/SLS with G17. My fastest was .93 and an average about 1.2. Video is a big help to see what you are doing if you don't have a training partner.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Runcible

Runcible Works
Staff member
Moderator
Vendor
#8
I write this mostly on account of your video; I may be misreading that so mea culpa.

It looks like your raw speed is at a good place; in matters of twitch, you may have what you need for the sub-1 sec draw. Where I would look to shave time would be in the geometry of how you cross from a firing grip on the weapon-in-holster to being at full presentation.

One of the points made elsewhere, as the indicators of a properly setup 6004 were quibbled out, was that the proper drawstroke for the properly setup drop holster creates no lateral disturbance with an unbuckled legrig as the pistol is withdrawn or replaced. Regularly having a few draws with the legstraps undone is thus a diagnostic for certain deficiencies in the drawstroke, notably deviating from the vertical motion of the pistol to soon and generating drag as the holsterbody retards the motion of the muzzle to horizontal alignment.

Another tool for considering one's drawstroke is to use a small weight (ie. 5 lb) to work through the individual components and whole picture of the drawstroke; particularly considering where one feels there to be maximum or minimum mechanical leverage, fully extended joints resisting motion in-line with their range of articulation (a la tennis elbow), and wrist articulation or lackthereof.

I mention this due to the visible motion of your higher-riding hip holster with your drawstrokes, yet not your reholsterings. Hiprigs generally ride higher, and if without a drop (ie. UBL or S&S widget) may better serve the user if they draw to more compression on the upwards part of the drawstroke - to say, the relevant joints can hinge no more in that direction, and one's musculature may be acting as mechanical stops. This will have the muzzle as clear as one can be, from the leading edge of the holstermouth. This is contradictory to some pistol doctrine. If memory serves, the older Magpul Dynamics stuff espoused moving the pistol along the diagonal (or hypotenuse) between holstermouth and position in-presentation, with the stated logic being to travel the shortest distance to full presentation; however, one might argue that moving the pistol an incrementally greater distance but through periods of maximum mechanical leverage will be faster overall. Drawing to full vertical compression also supports using mid- and high-ride concealment holsters, pairs well with ShivWorks methodology (namely ECQC\Position 2), and reduces the opportunity for torquing the pistol before it's exited the holster, which is associated with a haste to reorient the pistol as soon as it clears the holster mouth.

If adopting this modification to your drawstroke: the elbow of the firing hand wagonwheels down and past the ribs until the slide is aligned with the horizontal plane, the hands join up et al, and the weapon is pushed out from the shoulders directly.

I don't know if this adds complication to your methodology, but the short version is that I see benefits in speed to moving the pistol up-then-out vice along the hypotenuse - and I perceive the motion of your holster to suggest that you may also benefit from such consideration.

(On dry fire times v. live fire times - live fire holds us more accountable for our sight pictures and trigger presses then the dry fire. It's pretty normal in my experience, especially when practicing the twitch side of things, for the dry work to be much faster. I try to flip that around, and have my dry work slower to ensure the primacy of a good sight picture and trigger press over the other actions being practiced.)
 
#9
The 1 second draw is, in my opinion, significantly harder than the 1 second reload (measured shot to shot at least). At least with a production gun, carry gun, or duty weapon. One thing that will help you right now is to spend less time on the gun while it's in the holster- the very slight delay while you adjust and lock in your grip before moving upward with the gun is almost enough to get you under a second. That delay might be you adjusting your grip, it might be you waiting to feel that the gun is where you want it, or it might be as simple as a flexy belt/holster setup. I'm typically well under a second for draw stroke when using an Ares LE Duty Belt and production-legal Bladetech on a 1/3 scale steel target at 15. I REALLY fight to get under 1.1 when running the same gun in a Raven Concealment Phantom on an Ares Ranger or Aegis belt. The extra stiffness (and standoff) means you can get on the gun without having to drive downward to firm up the grip and as soon as you start bringing the gun up, it's starting to clear the holster. For me, it's about a quarter second difference in the equipment alone. Typically, hardware solutions are intellectually lazy, but if it's a gamer setup and it's not working for you, I'd consider an upgrade as well as additional repetition and training.
 

MattJames

Certified Derpologist
Moderator
#10
I would look up Ron Avery's video(s) on the subject. I would link it but unfortunately Youtube is no bueno were I'm at. Ignore Cory, but Avery makes a good visual break down of minor tweaks you can make to speed up the draw and shorten the time between *beep* and *bang*. Vogel might have some good material on Panteo as well. FailureDrill makes a good suggestion on body posture, a lot of people lose speed on a draw by making a lot of small but unnecessary movements with their shoulders. Some of its habits from doing a lot of concealment work (the unconscious shoulder drop/lift to help get a shirt to clear easier). Some of it is done without our knowledge due to the stress we put on ourselves to perform. I actually have the reverse problem... my reload's are slower then molasses in January hence why I'm always trying to avoid flat foot reloads.

1.2 is pretty decent, especially if your consistent. Weirdly enough, working something outside of gun practice ie picking up a sport or exercise regime that focus's heavily on hand eye coordination (wall balls... catch the 20 lb ball falling at your face from 9 feet in the air or suffer the consequances) helped me pick up my hand speed when coupled with dry practice. At least I noticed a marked increase in my hand/eye coordination and speed when I was doing both regularly. Took me about six months, but when I was practicing on the reg I was hitting .9-1.1 out of a Raven OWB pretty easily with no cover garment, dry or live. Now... not so much. Esp since I have switched to a CZ Shadow for my game gun vs Glock 17/34.
 

Tore Haugli

Moderator
Moderator
#12
There has been some great info, thanks.

Will work on minimizing the excessive movements and relaxing my shoulders more, and hopefully that will make me a bit faster.

Thanks so far, gents.
 

shooters101

OPFOR
Network Support I
#13
Open top holster and mag pouches, yes.

I think my live fire draw is at about 1.25 first shot in the A-zone at 7, and my dry fire about 1.15. Reload not sure, as it's been awhile since I clocked it, but I'll venture a guess that it's maybe just under 2 secs.
I'm in a cabin in the wintery mountains at the moment, but will hopefully get to the range on Friday or Saturday.

My end goal is to progress through the bump in the road that appears to me to be slow hand speed. Ideally it will lead to a faster first shot, and faster manipulations (reloads for example).

Here is a video clip from December, of me dryfiring - draw stroke particularly:


I did not get a proper grip on the last one, my support hand was too high on the gun.
The timer was at I think 1,2 secs, and I am aiming at a simulated 10 yard target.

What time are you using to pick up your dry fire?
 

shooters101

OPFOR
Network Support I
#15
Got it. I have been playing with an app on the iPhone and it is working pretty good at picking up the dry fire sound why I use headphones. It was a little expensive buts it's nice to really know. It's called make ready. It's the first one that I found that works good with dryfire.
 

MattJames

Certified Derpologist
Moderator
#17
Also, training a little reaction speed based off the sound would be also something to look at. If your not moving until the end of the beep, thats .3 your giving up off the bat. You might not be slow on hand speed, you might be slow off the mark on the beep.
 
#18
Is it possible to train SPEED and ACCURACY effectively at the same time? Or are they best worked from left and right respectively and blended in the middle...philosophical and theoretical question maybe? Philo-retical question...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

borebrush

Not Pumpkin
Staff member
Moderator
#19
Runcibles notes are noteworthy....

All I would add is you have excessive movement that can go away.

You are starting with arms hanging, on the beep you are assuming a belly index as you establish a grip. There is a noticeable start/stop/start to your draw. Your hands should not have a noticeable stop to their movement.

Advice...

1. Your support hand, I dont care where it is, it should be racing directly to position two. The caviat here that ties directly to Runcibles post, is that your support hand could come up to your right pec, aligned under your dominant eye. Hand position should be wrist touching chest, knife hand toward the threat (this opens the hand for the grip and minimizes risk of flagging your own hand).

2. Strong hand is putting noticeable downward force on the gun while in the holster. Knock some corners off and smooth it out.

3. Be quick to the gun and smooth in presentation. Its about throttle control and efficiency of movement.

Get the gun high out of the holster, drop the elbow to get the gun level and complete your two handed grip. You should be feathering the breaks as you press out to minimize the turbulence on the sights.
 
#20
I would look up Ron Avery's video(s) on the subject. I would link it but unfortunately Youtube is no bueno were I'm at. Ignore Cory, but Avery makes a good visual break down of minor tweaks you can make to speed up the draw and shorten the time between *beep* and *bang*. Vogel might have some good material on Panteo as well. FailureDrill makes a good suggestion on body posture, a lot of people lose speed on a draw by making a lot of small but unnecessary movements with their shoulders. Some of its habits from doing a lot of concealment work (the unconscious shoulder drop/lift to help get a shirt to clear easier). Some of it is done without our knowledge due to the stress we put on ourselves to perform. I actually have the reverse problem... my reload's are slower then molasses in January hence why I'm always trying to avoid flat foot reloads.

1.2 is pretty decent, especially if your consistent. Weirdly enough, working something outside of gun practice ie picking up a sport or exercise regime that focus's heavily on hand eye coordination (wall balls... catch the 20 lb ball falling at your face from 9 feet in the air or suffer the consequances) helped me pick up my hand speed when coupled with dry practice. At least I noticed a marked increase in my hand/eye coordination and speed when I was doing both regularly. Took me about six months, but when I was practicing on the reg I was hitting .9-1.1 out of a Raven OWB pretty easily with no cover garment, dry or live. Now... not so much. Esp since I have switched to a CZ Shadow for my game gun vs Glock 17/34.