DARC vs. ALERRT

[Matt Landfair]

This was brought up on Facebook.

I have attended both, I favor one greatly over the other obviously.

ALERRT covers the bare minimum in active shooter response training.

DARC (LECTC) is full blown counter-terrorism. It is structured to train patrol and SWAT simultaneously. Total immersion. Top notch consistent instruction, teachable scalable response parameters, train the trainer (To an extent) material.

Thoughts?

 

[M6B]

I have not attended DARC, but I would like to. I have attended ALERRT. My instructors were anti-SWAT and made several comments against SWAT during the training. None have been on a team. One was a Marine Policeman. Anyway, I did not really like it. I prefer the way we do our entries. They had us side-stepping in front of the door to try and clear as much of the room as possible. I like the idea of clearing as much as possible before entering. I like what is called "pieing on the move" or "stepping out" before entry. At least that is what we call it. Anyway, ALERRT could probably be a good thing for patrol officers. However, in our area, it seems to be a club for the instructors.

 

[Matt Landfair]

DARC caters to both patrol and SWAT and insist they be able to work together. This pie-ing on the move is more elaborate with DARC, where it gives you simultaneous muzzles towards unknown areas just prior to entry.

 

[Dog Off Leash]

Ok, I'll jump on the grenade and ask what I know a ton of guys have thought:

I think a number of guys are intimidated by the videos/AARs we've seen from DARC. It's hard to imagine how an "average patrolman" or even one "slightly above average" would fare during a course that seems to be intensely CQB-oriented with the (often minimal) training that they've received from their departments. NODS, gas masks, flash bangs - I'd doubt many patrolmen have ever encountered those in their day-to-day LE lives, let alone tried to become proficient with them while simultaneously attempting to learn CQB in a 360 degree threat-laden shoothouse/compound from hell.

Hell, I know I am intimidated by it, and I've got a fair bit more training than the average CO/Deputy/street Cop/insert non-SWAT dude here.

For those of you who've attended, how does the "average joe" fare at DARC? Is it a crawl/walk/run sort of thing or is it drinking from a firehose? For many of us DARC would require a hefty investment in time & finances (no departmental funds/paid vacation for us up here), and the concerns I've heard voiced is that the individual officer level of training (read as: piss poor) may prevent one from getting the most of the training (and thus time/money).

 

[Presscheck Consulting]

DOL. I know that you were speaking for others and less for yourself so please don't think that my response is directed towards you specifically.

One of the reasons that you get very little sleep at DARC is because you have to be back on site daily with plenty enough time to receive classroom instruction and conduct walk throughs without your gear or OPFOR to rifine the techniques that have been covered.

Now here comes the asshole in me and I apologize up front.

Intimidated?! The training is a simulated life or death struggle!!!! It sucks! It's hard! It's painful! You are going to get in some gunfights and you are going to fucking lose! You are going to stand exhausted in your hotel room looking in the mirror at your bruised body and come to the realization that you would have died today if it would have been for real.

This is called reality. If a man is unwilling to get his ass kicked in Arkansas for a couple days playing gunfighter, I don't want that mother fucker carrying a gun to protect my family and my community.

Active shooter situations are a horrible shit show. If the thought of playing paintball under the instruction of professionals is so intimidating that you are turned off to the idea, then what's gonna be running through your head as you step out of your patrol unit to the deafening roar of automatic weapons fire at your local shopping mall?

It's a mindset fail boat in my opinion.

I realize that people are untrained or under trained by their depts, they might now know shit about CQB, they don't have experience with the advanced tactical experience, etc etc etc. These are valid issues and I'm not downplaying them. Forcing yourself to embrace these new concepts is a significant step in professional growth.

I hate to sound hot around the collar, but the idea that simulated combat would cause any man to shirk away makes me seriously question where their head is at when it comes to the realities of taking and saving human life with a firearm.

I have been in tens of realworld gunfights, not one of them was ever as difficult as the simulated combat I encountered in Arkansas........ more sweat in training, less blood in combat.

Embrace the suck! It builds character! Lol!

 

[Chad H/BC520]

DOL, I know your area pushes MAC TAC as well through the ITOA. Do you have any info that can also help compare MACTAC?

 

[Dog Off Leash]

Gunslinger,

No need to apologize, and I understand the sentiment.

IMO the intimidation comes not from the training itself, but rather the ability to learn and properly apply the level of training that DARC is providing when ones foundation may not be the most stable.

One of the guys I was talking to about it, who'd read the reviews over on LF, had a pretty good analogy: In his opinion from what he'd read, it'd be like going from Junior Varsity to the Pros. Would someone of the JV level be able to properly apply the training and be able to successfully employ the TTPs?

That's the big concern, that's the intimidating factor (at least for me) - not the training itself, but the lack there-of prior to entering the course. Nobody wants to be "that guy" slowing down the rest of the group because of a lack of fundamental training and experience.

DOL, I know your area pushes MAC TAC as well through the ITOA. Do you have any info that can also help compare MACTAC?

I have yet to go through MACTAC. I just finished Rapid Response, which our agency is teaching as a primer for MACTAC. The big MACTAC push is supposed to start this year. Depending on scheduling, I may end up putting myself through MACTAC.

 

[Presscheck Consulting]

DOL.... I will let you in on a little secret almost everyone that goes there is fucked up. Almost nobody has significant experience fighting in a mask at night. Basically DARC is a bunch of people of various experience levels come together and learn techniques they have never used before, then they strap on gear that most of them have little experience with, and the go into a dark unknown Floorplan without radios or night vision devices (initially) and a motivated squad of OPFOR beats the living shit out of them all night long.

Your individual skillset going into night one will have little to do with the above outcome....lol!

The mask really only serves two purposes.
1. Safety. A properly sealed mask will not fog up. The rubber covers the face. Your mask is your protection from paint to the face at fist fighting distance.
2. "Fog of war" wearing a mask reduces the ability to verbally communicate and reduces your perifieral vision. If you can fight with a mask on, life without it becomes easy breezy.

 

[Grizzly]

Gunslinger,

No need to apologize, and I understand the sentiment.

IMO the intimidation comes not from the training itself, but rather the ability to learn and properly apply the level of training that DARC is providing when ones foundation may not be the most stable.

One of the guys I was talking to about it, who'd read the reviews over on LF, had a pretty good analogy: In his opinion from what he'd read, it'd be like going from Junior Varsity to the Pros. Would someone of the JV level be able to properly apply the training and be able to successfully employ the TTPs?

That's the big concern, that's the intimidating factor (at least for me) - not the training itself, but the lack there-of prior to entering the course. Nobody wants to be "that guy" slowing down the rest of the group because of a lack of fundamental training and experience.

I can answer this a bit I think. But first a bit of background. I'm a computer geek by profession and opfor at DARC by obsession. I've also taken three open enrollment classes at DARC. Two were pistol and one was baby steps cqb similiar to the intro to the LETC 1 class. But with some opsec stuff stripped out that wasn't applicable to civilian needs. So you can see my ramp up was pretty steep compared to what even a somewhat seasoned officer would be.

The instructors at DARC are 100% focused on helping the students. The head viking is an excellent teacher that will find was to educate anyone the dullest knife to the kid that already thinks he knows it all. From what I've seen having no background is almost better than some students that already think they know what they are doing too well. You are better off to be a sponge at DARC.

Also, having done opfor out there for years I've never seen a class that really just failed. Some classes go more advanced than others. But by TD05 everyone is working at a much higher level than even TD04. The change in how effective teams are is very impressive. If you can operate an m4 and a pistol DARC can teach the rest.

Bring a don't quit and don't take offense when you are wrong and you'll leave the swamp a better man.

 

[Grizzly]

I might be missing the edit button so sorry for double posting. I realized when I said "If you can operate an m4 and a pistol DARC can teach the rest." it sounded like DARC couldn't teach you that. Trust me they can. But for a LETC 1 class it should would be helpful to be used to operating a rifle and pistol prior to showing up. Especially malfunction clearing and safety procedures. Because both of those will be very important while stacked up in small spaces and shooting sims/utms.

 

[Presscheck Consulting]

I would like to add to what Griz just said about being a sponge and inexperience almost being better.

the tactics taught at DARC have very important slight differences from other traditional techniques. Remembering to apply the techniques taught at DARC when it's dark, scary, loud, and you are in incredible physical pain from an unknown direction can be extremely difficult.

Several times during the course I reverted to the SOPs that were hardwired inside my head when things turned into a shit show. Overpenetration of rooms and not face shooting the live OPFOR (because of safety training scars about deliberate head shots with simms) were two problems that had to be addressed during AARs.

Going there with a tactical open mind will allow you to learn the techniques being taught without stuggling to unlearn your current tactical techniques.

I'm a big believer in going "all in" when trying new techniques. You can't give an honest assessment about the viability of adopting a technique if you have not given said techniques a fair shake.

To that end, my time at DARC was difficult in that I was always forcing myself to NOT do what I've always done and remembering to do what I had learned there. CQB came very easy for me and having to use conscious thought instead of running on auto pilot flowing through a house was frustrating. It was like learning to walk all over again and having to tell yourself to put one foot in front of the other......

 

[borebrush]

Speaks volumes about you Roland... Not many dudes are willing and able to hit the capslock on thier alphaness and step back into a plebian role.

I really want to go to DARC... Cause I know the suck will not disappoint.

 

[JCSpringer]

I went to DARC law enforcement counter terror 1 as a patrolman. I'm not swat or former .mil. it was my second course there. I took part in the first tactical urban sustainability course TUSC. That was a class I had exactly 4 days to prepare for. Nite those two classes don't compare but there is an overlap. I mention that to say this. The teaching methodology that is in place has synthesized the learning process to a very digestible course. There are aspects that I have not fully perfected but leave by that course I did leave with a knowledge that I could pass along to anyone who wants to hear it. Teach the teacher concept. It's tough to fully explain on my phone while maintaining my lane on my way home. hopefully I can make it home safely and explain more. Do not be discouraged by the course description or soundtrack.

 

[mark1911]

For frame of reference and disclosure. I've attended/adjunct instructed at DARC for quite some time, Rich is a close friend, same with Travis. I am an LEO for a large department in the western US, with quite a bit of time on a busy Team.

I recently attended ALERRT as student. The ALERRT package is well documented, with a well developed script instruction system. Class room, blue gun, to force on force. Very similar to Rapid Deployment/Active Gunman/Active Shooter training programs taught since Columbine. Focus on formation movement techniques and enabling individual skills, with single (later a couple) threats. Some of the tactics advocated by the course, differed from what my experiences have taught me, but that is the nature of the beast, sometimes.

 

[JimH]

I would like to add to what Griz just said about being a sponge and inexperience almost being better.

the tactics taught at DARC have very important slight differences from other traditional techniques. Remembering to apply the techniques taught at DARC when it's dark, scary, loud, and you are in incredible physical pain from an unknown direction can be extremely difficult.

Several times during the course I reverted to the SOPs that were hardwired inside my head when things turned into a shit show. Overpenetration of rooms and not face shooting the live OPFOR (because of safety training scars about deliberate head shots with simms) were two problems that had to be addressed during AARs.

Going there with a tactical open mind will allow you to learn the techniques being taught without stuggling to unlearn your current tactical techniques.

I'm a big believer in going "all in" when trying new techniques. You can't give an honest assessment about the viability of adopting a technique if you have not given said techniques a fair shake.

To that end, my time at DARC was difficult in that I was always forcing myself to NOT do what I've always done and remembering to do what I had learned there. CQB came very easy for me and having to use conscious thought instead of running on auto pilot flowing through a house was frustrating. It was like learning to walk all over again and having to tell yourself to put one foot in front of the other......

On behalf of the OP4, we thank you for your restraint with the face shots. We all know it happens from time to time...so is the nature of what goes on out there when the lights go out and the music starts. However, keeping it to a minimum is greatly appreciated.

 

[Presscheck Consulting]

Speaks volumes about you Roland... Not many dudes are willing and able to hit the capslock on thier alphaness and step back into a plebian role.

I really want to go to DARC... Cause I know the suck will not disappoint.

If you go, I will go.... if only to laugh and watch the wheels come off. I'll be willing to be physically scarred for life to watch that happen.

 

[FailureDrill]

This thread is awesome and answered a bunch of questions I had.

 

[JCSpringer]

Now that I'm mostly stationary I want to add one more observation. So long as you go with the intent of learning and sucking it up throughout the course you will succeed. Like the man wearing a blue gander mountain shirt says this is not a tactical vacation and there will be no barrier masturbation. I guess the thing that truly separates people there is their attitude. Those who drive on through the pain of sims and the stress of the environment and those who pause to do ballet.

 

[Matt Landfair]

It's my tactical vacation, but my definition is different than others.

 

[mark1911]

The LECTC course was intentionally designed to mix patrol and tactical officers, the varied experience mimics real world deployments, and allows for a well rounded experience. It is the contributions of individuals, whatever their experience and capacity, that make for a group experience.

I can appreciate the concerns one would have about: experience level, training level, training background, fitness, weapon handling, cost/resources/time, equipment, etc. At DARC, course are not designed to be easy or fun. Although they are fun, and easy, depending upon what definitions you use.

I would suggest the sacrifice is worth the cost, for me, the sacrifice has been well worth the cost of admission.