Course Round Count

[ptrlcop]

What do you feel is an appropriate, per day round count for a shooting class. Thinking back, the best class I had from a personal gains standpoint was the lowest round count and the worst had the highest. That may or may not mean anything. I will say that I have been in a class at the end of a higher round day where I was just going through the motions by the end, maybe that's my issue and not one of course structure but I thought it was an interesting subject to discuss.

 

[Dr. No]

It depends on if those rounds are meaningful or not. Lots of reps are good, but only if there is some sort of accuracy emphasized.

When I teach it tends to be about 200-300 rounds a day. We check targets fairly often.

 

[Kevin 149]

Jimmy, good timing for this question and discussion. Can't wait to see where it goes.

I'm exceptionally lucky in that I'm able to take classes a little more affordably than most. My job reimburses me for tuition, and I've been a reloader longer than I've been a cop. I'm even more lucky in that a fellow copper at my job is one of the USPSA GM's I talk about below, and through him I've been able to train with several other USPSA GM's.

For purposes of this, I'll simply divide classes into two types, gamer vs. tactical. I'm not trying to turn this into an "IPSC will get you killed" type of argument, I think everybody here understands that each camp can learn from the other.

Gamer instructors definitely tend to have higher round counts than the tactical classes I've attended. Generally speaking, in a gamer pistol class, you'll shoot in the 600-1,000/day range. They are not wasted rounds, there is no "spraying and praying," nor any other waste. The commonalities in the USPSA guys I've trained with....

***believe it or not, accuracy is hammered more so with most of the USPSA guys than with some tac trainers.

***We learn by repetition, so each drill is repeated many times.

***You must do it, in order to learn it...each drill will typically have a short intro, explanation, and demo, then do it again and again under supervision. Also, see #2 above.

***Since a typical gamer stage may have anywhere up to 32 rounds or more, and some issues just don't present themselves until after several rounds, any given gamer drill may have a couple more rounds than any given tactical drill.

***Individual skills seem to be broken up into smaller chunks.

Last weekend we went to Ohio to train. One of the drills was 15 rounds, and we each ran it 3 or 4 times, while the pro watched and timed us, individually, each time. (And we watched, filmed, and harassed each other, each time.) Not a single round was a waste, quite the contrary, the drill could have been any typical stage in a match; and, taking a step back to see the forest instead of the trees, could easily be translated into a multiple attacker type scenario.

You can talk about swimming or riding a bike all day long, but in order to learn how to swim or ride....you have to swim or ride.

The tactical guys I've trained with generally spend more time talking about...well...tactics...but also mindset, the law, equipment, physiology, anatomy, policy and probably a few other things that aren't really relevant to gun games. But are very relevant to survival on the street and in court.

So...what do I consider appropriate? Just like everything else, it depends. If I'm at a gamer class I expect to shoot more and do more reps. At a tac class I expect to learn more about articulation, equipment, tactics, etc....

Hope this helps. I was 'sposed to be sending you an email tonite but as you can see I was sidetracked by a bright shiny object.....keep an eye on your email in the next day or three.

 

[Orionz06]

Really depends. I've shot 2.400 rounds in a 2 day class and felt it was appropriate, 500 rounds in 2 days and felt it was too little and 300 rounds in two days and felt it was too much.

 

[hogarth]

I think, as others have said, that it all depends. I would say that most of the 2 day classes I've taken to this point have had round counts in the 600 range (both days combined). But, in Paul Howe's AIT class, which was a tactics-based class (2.5 days), I only shot a total of 368. Other than some fundamentals checks, we did everything dry, then live, then live in the dark. Very individualized so it all took time.

Then again, I am signed up for Jeff Gonzales' intermediate pistol class later this year and am anticipating 1000+ over the 2 days, as my understanding is that he will have us do longer strings of fire to help diagnose issues of grip integrity and such. His class is, I guess, more of a fundamentals/mechanics class rather than "tactics", hence the higher round count.

So, again, it all depends.

 

[Grizzly]

I think it might be related to experience as well.

A long high round count class was invaluable to me as a newer shooter. We did 3 days going through almost 3500 rounds of fmj and maybe 200 of simunition. We started with the very basics of body mechanics and progressed through shooting, pressing out, drawing, low light, weapon retention etc etc. The number of rounds was very good and burning the correct form into my brain.

That said I don't think redoing that same class again would be as valuable to me. So a lower round count with more focus on certain aspects of shooting might net me more improvement.

 

[WayneF]

As others have stated, I think it is relative.

I have learned a ton from shoothouse courses with Pat Rogers (little over 100 rounds in three days) and Steve Fisher (around 200 rounds in two days) which are more about decision making than pulling a trigger. I did a CQB course with Greg Ellifritz that was less than 200 rounds for the day that taught me a ton about fighting at bad breath distances.

If I am learning weapon manipulations I can see several hundred rounds a day. If I am working on marksmanship fundamentals it is hard to focus past 300-500 rounds. Standing on a square line shooting NSR's on every threat command quickly starts to turn into ballistic masturbation.

I have been to some classes where I expended 2000 rounds in a weekend and I will say that those were the classes that had a minimum amount of feedback from the instructor and the least amount of knowledge imparted. There simply isn't enough time for diagnosis or instruction if you are pulling triggers 99% of the time.

 

[Grizzly]

I have been to some classes where I expended 2000 rounds in a weekend and I will say that those were the classes that had a minimum amount of feedback from the instructor and the least amount of knowledge imparted. There simply isn't enough time for diagnosis or instruction if you are pulling triggers 99% of the time.

What was the instructor to student ratio? The one high round count class I went to feedback was very good. But we had a 3 to 1 student to teacher ratio and were shooting steel targets. So misses were evident quickly and issues were addressed equally fast.