Civ CCW/EDC/Training

Chris Taylor

Random Factor of the K Power
One of the founding tenets of the P&S network is "mission drives the gear train." With that philosophy in mind...

What is the mission, and what gear is necessary, for a civvy CCW/EDC? When/how should it be scalable? What situations would warrant scaling up or down? What may be too much? How much may be not enough?

What training should be prioritized?

Every situation is different, so answers will vary.

This is a mindset topic as much as anything, and is meant to encourage discussion and thinking on the part of our members, not tell people they're wrong.

This is ***not*** a pocket dump thread, don't do it.

This was inspired by a FB topic that started off with an "EDC pic" that included 4 blasters, 3 knives, full trauma FAK with CPR mask, and other assorted sundries. I thought it was excessive, and that we could do a bettter job pointing folks in a good direction.
 

KyPlinker

Amateur
In my opinion as a civilian, you should be able to do the following:

-defend yourself, others
-heal/care for yourself/others
-perform basic daily functions (work related, errands, travel, etc)
-survive the day, period

EDC gear and training should allow you to perform those tasks more effectively, without limiting your normal activities or routines.

A defense is the one everyone likes to focus on, because guns are fuckin sweet. Often times though, that mindset completely disregards the other necessary activities. In reality, a gunfight is the least likely outcome of your day, even in a war zone, so while defense is important, it should not be your sole purpose. Think of EDC mindset as a "whole person" mentality.

A quality firearm, and corresponding accessories, along with professional training make a competent defense very possible. Furthermore, familiarity with your chosen firearm is very important. Try not to change guns like you change socks, as this could potentially cause a mental hang up should things go bad.

Healing should be one of the most important focuses when it comes to our training portfolio. In the land of cheeseburgers and big gulps, you are far more likely to encounter a coworker or fellow human in need of medical assistance than you are to encounter an enemy machine gun nest. Basic Red Cross training is adequate, as well as affordable. Basic medical supplies kept near us on a daily basis should be based around most likely scenarios, given our environment, as well as our specific levels of training. Much like a gun, don't carry a chest decompression Kit if you don't know how to use it, (or at all, really).

More likely to happen than either of the above two situations, is that your day will go perfectly normally with no sign of a crisis or emergency. In this case, we need to carry things that help us do our given work. A sharp knife, a flashlight, and a pen/pencil and notebook will help the average person stay prepared throughout te day. If you are a specialist in some field or another, your gear will likely include tools of your trade, that serve no other purpose. Job specific training rarely has much crossover with the other categories, but if on the off chance it does, pay close attention and stay proficient. This could include basic medical training, specialized safety information, etc...

Surviving the day is just that. Getting home at the end of your shift safely and seeing the proverbial wife and kids, or dog/hamster/sex doll. Survival is a combination of all of the above topics, as well as general information that we should be constantly gleaning. Fire building, shelter construction, field dressing game, etc... Much of this information will cross over, and when you need it, you really really need it. Gear for this category is typically not carried on the body, but more often kept in a vehicle or bag of some sort. Tarps, lighters, water purification, etc... This is the worst case scenario knowledge that preppers have wet dreams about using. As prepared men, (and women), we should at least maintain a modicum of this knowledge in case the theoretical balloon ever does go up while you are in the McDonald's drive through line. Much if this knowledge is passed down from previous generations,, but for those of us who weren't so lucky, YouTube and various books often are chocked full of it.

For scaling, we should always keep in mind that if there is a situation we can't handle, we should probably avoid being in that situation. Don't walk down the sketchy alley, don't pick up the hitchhiker, etc... Risk mitigation allows us to put a cap on how high we must e able to scale our defensive/offensive loadouts. By all means have to ability to gear up and fight a cartel, but try not to do that if you can avoid it.

For scaling down, we must be cognizant of local laws and regulations, as well as work policies, and establish personal limits as to how willing we are to violate them. Social norms are easily broken, such as carrying a slightly smaller gun to church to mitigate and eliminate being "made". However, if your workplace has a no guns/knives policy, you need to weigh out te pros and cons of carrying in that kind of an NPE. Is the job worth losing if you get caught? Will there be legal ramifications?

In summary, consider what training you have, what equipment you need, and what holes you need to fill In either of those categories and go from there. Be as self sufficient as possible, and carry things that allow you to function efficiently and safely throughout your day. Work within your left and right limits, which are set not only by your environment, but your level of training.
 

Erik N.

Newbie
As a civilian my mission mindset in a threat environment is: Stop the immediate threat, Move to somewhere safe, Communicate to local authorities, and then provide Security, Support, and Cooperation. These are all suggestions I've gleaned from various professional and legal resources over the years, and none of this should be taken as legal advice: I am not a lawyer, I am not an expert in firearms law, and I am not a Law Enforcement Officer. I'm just a civilian. These are things I've either researched extensively or worked out with various self-defense instructors over the years.

I had a hard time embracing the idea of 'less is more' for a while, particularly because I was a packrat in the Army and tend to plan for the worst. Always more ammo, more gear, more tools. I still tend to wear cargo pants and 5.11 shirts to accommodate all the junk I haul around. A friend of mine went through a phase where he carried a sidearm, a BUG, two knives, an altoids tin full of hemostatic gauze, and a punch knife in his belt. He's since reduced his loadout quite a bit by relying more on good training and skills development than 'moar toys = moar better'.

Much of my suggestions below address not just the EDC components of self-defense, but mindset, rehearsal, and the training needed to get through the entire encounter from start to finish-- the start being well before you even see a threat, and the finish being after the last bang of a gavel declaring you innocent.

1: Stop the immediate threat. A threat can be anything from a violent attacker to a belligerent drunk. One of my favorite anecdotes came from a Taekwondo grandmaster, when I was a kid and we were pestering him on how he'd deal with a rowdy drunk. 'I'd buy him a beer and run out the back door', was his plan. He recognized that it was more important to DE-escalate and then de-part than it was to risk getting thrown in jail for thoroughly trouncing someone over something as dumb and preventable as a bar fight. Are there times you absolutely have to meet force with force, or escalate? Yes. But as a civilian lacking the legal resources or protections afforded to LEOs, even in states that don't have so-called 'stand your ground' laws, I think it behooves you to take whatever measures are prudent and safe to avoid employing a weapon in self-defense. My ego's not so important I'd hurt someone over them offending it, and I imagine that a prosecuting attorney (PA) is going to be less likely to bring charges in a fight that started with 'He was trying to leave' as opposed to 'They were yelling at each other right before it went down'. It'll particularly help during a civil trial, too.

To this end, think about what you need not to win a gunfight against a mob of zombies, but what you'll need to deal with (potentially) 2-3 assailants. A worst-case scenario is getting ambushed or blindsided; your EDC kit should have a pocket knife or compliance tool in easy reach if you're on your back; a flashlight to identify dark shadows (I prefer one bright enough to use as a defensive tool); and if your locale allows it, a firearm with a spare magazine, of course. Arguments for or against backup guns have been made by people much smarter than I, so I'll leave that an exercise to the reader.

Whatever EDC you use, whether you 'escalate' it or not, there is a tradeoff in the narrative that will follow its use. You know that old saw about keeping a glove and ball next to your bat in the trunk, right? That's there to help frame the narrative of the defensive exercise in YOUR favor. Body armor is perfectly legal in most states, but showing up somewhere and getting into a gunfight while wearing it can lend to an argument of premeditation on your part. It might not be the one thing that makes a PA's case, but swaying juries is often a matter of lots of little pieces adding up. So consider carefully anything and everything you carry-- a carbine in your trunk might be a very useful tool, but that's a lot of fast talking to a jury later that could be avoided.

2: Maneuver : If you've had to use lethal force to defend yourself, neutralizing your attacker might not mean you're 'safe' yet. I am not a lawyer, and I am not going to advise you to stay or go. If you decide you are not in a safe location, you need to be able to articulate your choice to depart from the area to the LEOs who respond to your call. Otherwise you can be charged with fleeing the scene of a crime. Do not go any farther than you absolutely have to in order to get somewhere secure. This is where your situational awareness and physical fitness training are key-- don't just stand there aiming a gun into the sky with a shocked look on your face. Get your back to a wall, perform an administrative reload, and then assess the situation and come up with a plan of action. Your heartrate is going to explode and adrenaline is going to make you shaky, so Maneuvering also means controlling your body's stress reactions. Do that goofy looking left-right check with your gun at centerline. Your instincts might be to continue fighting, OR to turn and run. You have to overcome these instincts and think through the confrontation as deliberately as possible. The goal here is not to WIN. The goal is to PROTECT others and SURVIVE. That might mean that you have to maneuver on a secondary attacker to make the area secure; it might mean you find a doorway and start running. There are risks to both options, which is why I defer to Massad Ayoob's expertise here.

3: Communicate to Authorities: Many gun owners train very hard to use their weapons in self-defense, whether they take tactical courses or compete in IDPA to hone those skills. But fewer of us have rehearsed the lines in our head needed to effectively communicate to an LEO or 911 when a bad situation has unfolded. You should always, always have a cell phone of some kind on you, because The instant you've neutralized the threat and made it somewhere secure (whether that takes two steps to the side or a run across the street), you need to be communicating to the local authorities. The military issues index cards to troops with 9-Line medevac reports on it; it's a prudent idea to have something similar on your person, whether in your wallet or tucked into a pocket somewhere. A simple index card that you can read from could save you a LOT of grief down the road. This is from Second Call Defense:

You: Operator, my name is <your name>. I'm at <street address>. I was attacked and feared for my life. There has been a shooting. Send an ambulance and the police. I'll be <your location at the address>. I'm <physical description> and I'm wearing <description of your clothing>.

Let's say you're a white man with a wife and two kids. The call would sound like this:

Operator, my name is Sam Smith. I'm at my home at 123 Main Street. I was attacked and feared for my life. There has been a shooting. Send an ambulance and police. I'll be standing at the front door with my wife. My children have gone next door to our neighbor's home. I'm a white male, 6 feet tall with glasses and brown hair. I'm wearing blue jeans and a green t-shirt.

Do not volunteer more information! Anything and everything you say over the phone to a 911 operator is admissible as evidence. People have lost civil suits because they blurted out 'I'm sorry' and that was taken as admission of negligence in a civil trial. They've been tried in criminal court for saying 'It was an accident'. Even saying 'I shot someone' can change the tone of the 911 call, because it can make you sound like the aggressor. When the cops show up, unless you are holding someone at gunpoint, you should not have the weapon in your hand. Some people say it's better to set it on the ground; personally I think that invites a lot of risk for anyone wanting to get quick revenge or to steal a firearm. If you're 100% sure the area's secure, you can holster it. Otherwise, stay at low ready (and for god's sake, don't aim it at the cops or point with it!)

That brings us to:

4: Security, Support, Cooperation: Once you've moved somewhere safe and you've informed authorities as to your location, it's time to assess. If you're potentially dealing with more attackers, it might be wise to barricade the entrance and get low to the ground. Get behind cover (not concealment) and analyze your surroundings to be sure no one can sneak up behind you or ambush you. Your job now is to hole up until your LEOs show up. If you've been wounded, or someone else has been wounded, apply aid as needed. Be prepared to treat people for shock or panic. If I were recently the victim of an attack, and I my attacker was neutralized, I would attempt to render to him any aid I reasonably can provide without putting myself or my friends at risk. I might be limited to just walking a wounded individual through the steps needed to administer self-aid, or to ask a nearby onlooker to do so, but it shows you at least tried to render assistance. Obviously don't lose security on your firearm; you don't know for sure there aren't other attackers waiting nearby for you to drop your guard. Pay attention to your surroundings to make sure another attacker isn't setting up an ambush. If you defend yourself with a firearm and hold your attacker at gunpoint, his friend coming out of the store might completely mis-read the situation.

Tourniquets are nice to have but they're not very useful if someone's been shot in the chest. Hemostatic gauze would get in my pack before a tourniquet would. Realistically speaking, cops and paramedics are not going to be far away if there's an active report of a shooting. I keep spare trauma gear in my car; if I REALLY needed it, I could send someone to get the portable GSW kit for my range bag that stays velcroed inside my trunk. Almost all businesses have essential medical kits, and many of them include things like CPR masks, gauze, and compression bandages. You should be able to improvise a very short-term bandage fairly easily in a pinch, and part of your EDC loadout should include the skills to apply trauma care AND keeping those skills fresh. I have a 50' length of 550 cord on my wrist that I can easily cut up and improvise into a tourniquet.

Finally, remember the cops are going to show up and probably arrest everyone. You'll get cuffed, you'll be asked to make a statement. Ayoob advocates making a simple complaint and signing it; 'I was attacked by those individuals over there, and I defended myself'. Other legal experts actually suggest requesting the cops place you in protective custody for your own safety. That makes you the victim in the incident. After giving your initial short statement, you can say 'I'm tired and not thinking clearly; I want to speak with a lawyer before I answer any other questions'. This is not done to be evasive, but because in the heat of the moment you might mis-speak or recollect things incorrectly. You should not answer any questions until you've had time for the emotional shock to wear off and a lawyer to advise you.

Conclusion

EDC kits should be about getting you to a better position. That's all. You're not a cop responding regularly to violent incidents; you're not likely to need to charge into a building and render aid in a mass-cas event (and a single tourniquet isn't going to do much good anyway). Your EDC should be as trim and light as possible, and focused on the essentials needed to Neutralize the threat, Move somewhere safe, Communicate to LEOs, and Secure your immediate area. Trying to jam the entire contents of a patrol officer's duty belt into your cargo pants is very cumbersome and tends to make you stand out in a crowd. Every item you carry should have a specific purpose and more importantly, you absolutely should have the training to back up everything on your person.
 

ImBatman

I'm on a boat!
Erik that is seriously SUPERBLY well said.

"When/how should it be scalable? What situations would warrant scaling up or down? What may be too much? How much may be not enough?"

In regards to "not enough" there's times that there's not enough gun, if working in/around vehicles with a BUG for example, then there's mission failure items such as no white light capability. Not enough also pertains to training, both with medical and gun handling. What is enough gun for someone at a high level of proficiency will provide inadequate ballistic overmatch for a novice win a fight.

Too much for me is when it impedes with my life, if I'm unable to do the vast majority of my daily activities with a certain mode of carry, either due to severe discomfort or difficulty concealing said gear then it's time to scale down. This is when I start looking for dual use items, or looking to maximize unused space.
 

KyPlinker

Amateur
My only critique would be using the 550 cord for an improvised tourniquet. It will work, but using something that thin could cause severe nerve and tissue damage after the fact.

If it is part of a vehicle kit anyways, I cannot stress enough the importance of a proper tourniquet. An improvised tourniquet is well and good, but when you need a tourniquet, you need it right the fuck now, and of the wound is gushing, taking the time to cut your shirt up and find a wondlass could be the few seconds that make a life or death difference.

Another thing that I see in the "tactical" community is an under appreciation of local instructors and non tactical courses. If someone is clown shoes, obviously we should ignore them, however simple inexpensive classes like Appleseed, a basic NRA course, or even just retaking the states CCW course will expand and refresh your knowledge, and you might luck out and run in to an above average instructor or meet fellow shooters who are like minded.

There are also local courses like CERT, (community emergency response team), which are disaster related which could lead you to making contacts in the local first responder realm, as well as assist you in building medical and disaster related skill sets. The training is usually free and you get to help your community, win win. Even hanging out with and helpings a local Boy Scout troop could help you learn skills that will help you become a better prepared person, using the whole person concept, and will serve you far better when an emergency actually happens than a bat belt full of tools you don't know how to use.
 

Bourneshooter

Blue Line Sheepdog
... edit out

There are also local courses like CERT, (community emergency response team), which are disaster related which could lead you to making contacts in the local first responder realm, as well as assist you in building medical and disaster related skill sets. The training is usually free and you get to help your community, win win. Even hanging out with and helpings a local Boy Scout troop could help you learn skills that will help you become a better prepared person, using the whole person concept, and will serve you far better when an emergency actually happens than a bat belt full of tools you don't know how to use.

I went through the CERT program in my town as a high schooler. I was one of a handful that were not senior citizens in the class. It was a free (just the time/gas to get there) way to get all sorts of basic training on things you normally won't or would have to spend money to obtain. Basic 1st Aid/CPR, improvised carry of injured, etc. Very helpful and it will usually help you find more people to get more training and be an asset to the community as well as a better trained person yourself.

Back on the thread:

When off duty, most of the time I'm with my family. This means that some of my "duty" as an LEO to stop a life threatening situation from continuing may be trumped by my more important duty to get my family to safety. That opens up another issue, getting my family to safety. I may need to use both hands to haul kids/wife out of the danger area as I don't know how they would react as they don't get put into stress regularly like I do in a LE capacity.

I try to work the pre travel area information plan as part of my mindset before I leave to go anywhere. If I'm going somewhere I suspect issues might arise, I will bring more tools with me. Those tools could be a full IFAK in my pocket/backpack, 2 extra mags, a BUG, etc. No different than reading the weather predictions and deciding to bring a rain jacket.

Off duty/CCW the goal should be to at most be a witness, and try to avoid the conflict at all possibility. Look up the Craig Douglas "MUC" (Managing Unknown Contacts" stuff and try to take a class on that. Hang out with an off duty cop if you need help in that. Usually they can pick up the body language or behaviors that equal trouble and point it out to you as an idea of what to look for. It was brought up by two other posters in this thread about Avoiding A conflict or De-Escalation as priority. Do this if at all possible.

If its lethal force time, it's lethal force time. That will involve Law Enforcement and a police investigation. Your gun will go bye bye to evidence for anywhere from a few weeks to 5 or more years depending on the circumstances and state/local laws.

Less Than Lethal Force: Examples being baton/impact weapons, OC/Pepper Spray, Tazers, etc.
If you use one of these and they work, they allow you to leave without further contact with the "suspect." Good? Hopefully. However, you did just do what in some states is called "Battery" or unwanted touching of another. Some states allow Tazer useage by a private citizen and have specific statutes for illegal use of them. To protect yourself in a situation like this, you will probably need to contact LE and do a report so they can document you didn't just randomly beat up/Taze/OC a person on the street. This is not a 100% "this will happen" thing, but a possibility that must be discussed to prepare the mind for the chance.

Off duty/CCW I do not carry less than lethal force tools like a baton, tazer, oc. I only have a gun - lethal force and my training in "Hands on" or "physical" use of force. I try to practice good situational awareness and bad situation avoidance to avoid a conflict. Of note I do not travel to places I can not carry a gun on the streets as a matter of principle.

Gun, reload, light (for seeing stuff in the dark) and multitool are my minimum carry. If I feel the need I up it as needed adding more reloads, fighting knife, Tourniquet, IFAK, BUG, etc.
 

Erik N.

Newbie
My only critique would be using the 550 cord for an improvised tourniquet. It will work, but using something that thin could cause severe nerve and tissue damage after the fact.

If it is part of a vehicle kit anyways, I cannot stress enough the importance of a proper tourniquet. An improvised tourniquet is well and good, but when you need a tourniquet, you need it right the fuck now, and of the wound is gushing, taking the time to cut your shirt up and find a wondlass could be the few seconds that make a life or death difference.

Amen to that. The 550 cord is there if literally the only alternative is death or loss of limb. I keep a tourniquet in my range bag AND in my GSW kit in my car. Good catch, though, that's an absolutely valid correction.
 

KyPlinker

Amateur
The rest of your post was excellent!

Totally agree though, if it's all I have it will definitely work, I just don't want anyone getting the wrong idea. I know you know that, but the reader, Etc...
 

Erik N.

Newbie
The rest of your post was excellent!

Totally agree though, if it's all I have it will definitely work, I just don't want anyone getting the wrong idea. I know you know that, but the reader, Etc...

For sure, and I think I failed to mention that every gun I carry for CCW also has a white light built into it, too. The WML is only as a supplement for your primary light source; it should only be used when you're in an active defense situation that warrants drawing a gun. Anyone who uses a WML for PID or clearing an unknown area is inviting disaster.
 
I remember this post on facebook, and I was personally surprised he could carry that much crap without a backpack. Before leaving for the day I believe you should look at where your going, the laws governing the place there, and the probability of violence occurring. Along with the laws governing the place, the likelihood of being caught with a weapon, and whether the risk is worth the trouble. I'm not saying break the law, however I am saying if you are going to know the risk and be ok with the risk if your going to do that.
I believe Avoidance and Deescalation are key, as a Civilian its not your job to rush the threat, and you running to the sound of gunfire with a weapon in your hand is a good way to get shot either by the active shooter or a Cop. I hope to one day be a Civilian LEO, after my time in the Military is up. With that being said, if I can get my family out safely I will do that first. If I must engage I'll push them behind Cover and return fire as needed. If I can get out of a bad situation for the cost of a Beer, well its cheaper than a Lawyer.
I don't carry a less than lethal, if I must use force and I can't talk them down or get out of the way then my only option is lethal force and a good lawyer. I believe most violent problems that can't be solved peacefully can be solved with a Glock and a spare Mag, maybe a Shield with a spare. And a Tourniquet, maybe an Israeli Battle Dressing. If I find myself in a situation requiring more force than a handgun and a spare mag I've messed up. Either I didn't read the threat scenario right, or I wasn't paying attention to the situation.
My .02
 

Chris Taylor

Random Factor of the K Power
All...

What about training? Several folks have mentioned (correctly) that protecting themselves and loved ones is the first priority.

Does that only extend to firearms classes? What classes? What is appropriate for a civ CCW?

What about other classes? Medical? Urban E&E/survival? Situational awareness? Civilian UoF?

What about non-lethal options? Physical fitness? Martial arts? OC/pepper spray?

Does a small on body IFAK have a place? TQs?
 

Erik N.

Newbie
All...

What about training? Several folks have mentioned (correctly) that protecting themselves and loved ones is the first priority.

Does that only extend to firearms classes? What classes? What is appropriate for a civ CCW?

What about other classes? Medical? Urban E&E/survival? Situational awareness? Civilian UoF?

What about non-lethal options? Physical fitness? Martial arts? OC/pepper spray?

Does a small on body IFAK have a place? TQs?

For CCW, I think that a safe minimum standard is to pass your local LEO marksmanship course. That's not a terribly difficult course of fire with some practice, and it incorporates lots of essential dynamics. That way if anyone challenges your skill or expertise, you can say very authoritatively 'I can meet or exceed the marksmanship standards expected of our local law enforcement'. If you're a C or MM class competitive shooter, the POST qualification shouldn't be terribly difficult.

It's my opinion everyone should at least go through a basic trauma management course that encompasses how to treat a GSW. Basic CPR is a good start (known your ABCs, etc) but it's not terribly useful for anything but a very narrow set of circumstances. You should know how to treat shock, clear an airway obstruction, stabilize a broken limb, identify a tension pneumothorax or a neck injury, and how to apply a tourniquet or compression bandage to a GSW.

Use of Force classes are a major component of any self-defense class (or should be). Some folks think that a firearm is carte blanche to act whatever way one pleases. Don't be that woman who shot at a man fleeing Home Depot with $30 bucks worth of stuff in his pockets! The doctrine I've always understood is that the courts respect parity of force. You'd be very hard-pressed to justify using a firearm if someone shoved you or slapped you, for instance. You may only meet force with the minimum force necessary to end the altercation. The bigger the jump you make to minimum, the harder it is to sell your actions to a jury.

This is why I advocate studying judo or jiu-jitsu, even casually. You're using a martial style that doesn't look like a street fight-- you can easily say to a jury 'I simply attempted to prevent him from attacking me', instead of 'I punched him until he gave up'. My best friend is 5'6" and 140lbs on a good day; his entire philosophy of self-defense is that he will just hug someone (jiujitsu style) until they give up. I've got 6" and 80 pounds on him, and plenty of combatives training, and he can still stalemate me four times out of five. He's used this technique on drunken bar brawlers and family members alike; it's utterly inoffensive and takes very little effort, and as small of a guy as he is, it works pretty damn well.

This is why I also recommend training with less-lethal or compliance tools; when I'm travelling in California, for instance, I certainly can't carry a firearm. A compliance tool like a sturdy, blunt tactical pen isn't considered a concealed weapon, but it can be used to deter someone via compliance without actually hurting them. This is a legal area in which I am very much NOT an expert, though.

As for an IFAK, that's up to you. Personally I keep a GSW/trauma kit in my car, unless I'm on the shooting range. That's a call only you can make, though. I figure anywhere I go, I'm only a minute from my car, and even a serious bleed can be temporarily stopped by firm manual pressure until I can get to my kit or send someone to do it for me.
 
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