What are the down sides and positives?
Ceramic vs Steel vs ???
- Thread starter Matt Landfair
- Start date
Grizzly
Regular Member
In an effort to support the "talk about it here not FB" goal I'll chime in.
For my first set of plates (remember I'm not .mil/leo) I went with ar500 with the heavy coating for spall. My main reasons were:
1. Price (we got a group price and very cheap).
2. Durability, I wanted to be able to run these as opfor, working out etc and was a little concerned over ceramic toughness.
3. I knew I'd get a ceramic set down the road so I wasn't locked into these.
4. Spall/fragging with the heavy coating is fairly well contained (not perfect I know)
5. Basically the steel become a temporary set of plates that function like the fake training plates do only they have lvl III protection as well.
All that said I'm in the process of training up to be part time leo and when that is done a set of lvl IV multicurve ceramics has already been budgeted for. If I was only going to get one set of plates it would have been ceramic. Lighter and better protection wins.
For my first set of plates (remember I'm not .mil/leo) I went with ar500 with the heavy coating for spall. My main reasons were:
1. Price (we got a group price and very cheap).
2. Durability, I wanted to be able to run these as opfor, working out etc and was a little concerned over ceramic toughness.
3. I knew I'd get a ceramic set down the road so I wasn't locked into these.
4. Spall/fragging with the heavy coating is fairly well contained (not perfect I know)
5. Basically the steel become a temporary set of plates that function like the fake training plates do only they have lvl III protection as well.
All that said I'm in the process of training up to be part time leo and when that is done a set of lvl IV multicurve ceramics has already been budgeted for. If I was only going to get one set of plates it would have been ceramic. Lighter and better protection wins.
I'll always advise against the AR500, for the same reason I advise against buying a Hi-Point until you can get a Glock.
Armor isn't THAT much money; ceramic plates can be found (new) for $300 each. We're not talking about a $3K PVS14 here. If you actually need armor, and you buy steel, you will have to buy again later (and not very much later).
Don't misunderstand; steel stops bullets, and it is cheaper. I'm not saying those things are untrue. What I'm saying is that buying cheap tools when the difference in cost is a few hundred bucks will only make you spend more in the long run than if you'd bought the ceramics in the first place.
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Armor isn't THAT much money; ceramic plates can be found (new) for $300 each. We're not talking about a $3K PVS14 here. If you actually need armor, and you buy steel, you will have to buy again later (and not very much later).
Don't misunderstand; steel stops bullets, and it is cheaper. I'm not saying those things are untrue. What I'm saying is that buying cheap tools when the difference in cost is a few hundred bucks will only make you spend more in the long run than if you'd bought the ceramics in the first place.
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I mentioned this on the other thread on FB. AR500 armor is often not certified by anyone, and not approved for grant purposes. For LE/GOV Agency purchases.
Positives: cheap, thin, durable, available
Negatives: spall, weight, unknown ballistic ratings, unknown manufacturer support - warranty, etc
Positives: cheap, thin, durable, available
Negatives: spall, weight, unknown ballistic ratings, unknown manufacturer support - warranty, etc
Ceramic - get it from a reputable manufacturer with a track record. No gimmicky "nano tachnology super anything". If you can budget it get a multi curve plate (triple curve or a true SAPI cut/curve). Everything else is a tradeoff after you figure your most likely threat and choose a protection package. Weight, cost, thickness, and protection level are all at odds with each other, it is always a balancing act. V/r Mike
My first set of plates I specced out for my agency, I was worried about the durability of ceramic. We had a guy that was one of those guys that could put Mongo to shame (He pulled the side door off his mini van opening it one day...), and we had to consider if the plates would be properly cared for. They weren't going to get replaced unless we were shot wearing them, and that was iffy. We chose steel AMI TAC3S plates based on DrGKR's tests. They are thick, heavy, but oh so durable. When it came time for personal plate purchase, AT Armor steered me in a good direction and set me up with a couple different options, both ceramic. They are thinner than the ones I was used to and a bit lighter. My back loved me by the time we were done, at a price equitable for one TAC3S.
Will you be running the pistol/mags from your PC or from a beltline?
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For the most part, I'm not a fan at all of steel/alloy armor systems, for all the reasons mentioned above. When it comes to potentially life-saving equipment, I have no interest in going with the lowest cost option. Speaking of which, if you generally treat your ceramic systems like something your life may depend on, there will be far less to worry on when it comes to durability.
Steel has it's place though. A good example of this would be the VelSys ULV armor system-this plays to steel's advantage in thinness for a special threat, super concealable system. Of course, said system runs $1500+ last a checked, which can get you some pretty awesome ceramic plates. Along similar lines would be the Tencate 8075SA plates, that are SAPI sized, 0.20" thick, and roughly ~6lbs for a medium-but they are also still vaporware at the moment.
For me, personally, in my civvy self, the newer "bridge plates," are the answer-the Midwest FM STX, Point Blank Speed Plate Plus, and other Tencate 2000SA derived plates. Thin, light, stand alone, and not horribly priced.
Steel has it's place though. A good example of this would be the VelSys ULV armor system-this plays to steel's advantage in thinness for a special threat, super concealable system. Of course, said system runs $1500+ last a checked, which can get you some pretty awesome ceramic plates. Along similar lines would be the Tencate 8075SA plates, that are SAPI sized, 0.20" thick, and roughly ~6lbs for a medium-but they are also still vaporware at the moment.
For me, personally, in my civvy self, the newer "bridge plates," are the answer-the Midwest FM STX, Point Blank Speed Plate Plus, and other Tencate 2000SA derived plates. Thin, light, stand alone, and not horribly priced.
Longeye
Established
Re: SAPI size
Generally, size the plates according the size of BDU top that fits you best.
If you end up going for whatever odd reason with 10x12 plates, the good news is: they are all the same size give or take a 1/2". The bad news is: they are made to no common standard and few companies make specific 10x12 carriers- which means your 10x12 plates are going to slop around in any carrier and probably ride too low.
So, get SAPI size plates in Level III, and you have a huge variety of carriers to choose from. Before you ask, the carriers are sized to equal the plate size. M=M, L=L etc.
If you want more armor coverage, go up one size in plate, which also means one size up in carrier.
You do not want and have no need for Level IV plates. Forget they exist.
Truth.
The ONE caveat to the Lvl III to rule them all (CONUS) advisory-be sure the plate in question can also stop M855 (or M193 if it's steel). The inclusion of this threat in the testing of a LvlIII plate (hence the "LvlIII+" you see) is growing more common, but it is still a potential gotcha.
By the way-testing. Testing is NOT some jackass on youtube blasting away at a plate with XM193 with whatever AR he has handy. If you're at all in doubt, ask who tested/certified the plate, and the protocol used. While testing certificates can be hard to get (as a civvy), most firms will at least tell you the testing lab, and the protocol used. If the answer is, "This youtube video here from noted Youtube Celebrity shooter <Name>," you may want to look elsewhere.
english kanigit
Tactical Crossfit
I've been having this issue with Velocity Systems in relation to their P34 Lvl III/ IV ICW plates which are what I currently have. I may be a window-licking nobody but I'm not stupid enough to think that they haven't tested it at least in development. When I talked to one of their guys several times I was flat out told a couple of times that they can't say if it was ever tested against 5.56 threats but that it is only certified for the six shots of 7.62 M80 or one shot of 7.62x63 M2 AP when backed with their Lvl III soft armor. I don't particularly care what it's certified for as many of those certifications are so narrow as to not mean much in relation to the plethora of ballistic threats out there.
It's not terribly helpful or endearing to somebody who's trying to figure out if their gear needs to be replaced with something better.
Ek
I can kind of see things from the manufacturer's point of view. If something hasn't been, "officially," by the book tested, saying anything sets you up for liability concerns. We run into similar with medications, and off-label uses. If it hasn't been tested/verified/approved, they can't technically say much about it.
So, as much as it sucks, it's not so much VelSys being shitbirds, as it is the overly litigious nature of the US.
Also-there is testing, and there is TESTING. The two often get confused. Me taking a plate to the back yard and blasting it with whatever comes to hand at whatever range I feel OK at is testing. If I take a plate, and set it up in exact accordance to the NIJ specifications, and shoot it using a very precisely described barrel, bullet, and load...that is TESTING. One you can base certification upon, and the other you cannot. However, all the AR500 and Bulletproofme jokers seem to think that testing=TESTING, which sort of clouds things up.
english kanigit
Tactical Crossfit
I never said that it was them being shitbirds.
They have other products that clearly state if there is a threat that it won't protect against. Other manufacturers clearly label distinctions between between 5.56 threats like M193 and M855 in their testing and whether it will or will NOT stop them. Granted, that's usually for plates designed to deal with those threats.
If you don't want to say or can't say then that's fine but don't tell me that something will 'probably' work unless you care to quantify that. The stuff ought to be thought of as life-support equipment and quantified in a similar manner as to what it will and will not do.
Ek
They have other products that clearly state if there is a threat that it won't protect against. Other manufacturers clearly label distinctions between between 5.56 threats like M193 and M855 in their testing and whether it will or will NOT stop them. Granted, that's usually for plates designed to deal with those threats.
If you don't want to say or can't say then that's fine but don't tell me that something will 'probably' work unless you care to quantify that. The stuff ought to be thought of as life-support equipment and quantified in a similar manner as to what it will and will not do.
Ek
Dan_Kemp
Amateur
Well, it depends on how good a deal you get. XL plates in my price range just didn't grow on trees.
