Brace Contact Shooting

Tripleryder

Wants to cover compensators with his hands.
#1
This is probably equally at home in the Martial Arts and handgun forums..

A recent comment of mine on the Roland Special thread devolved into a discussion on Brace Contact Shooting. I thought a separate thread more appropriate to continue discussion on this.

If you are unfamiliar, 'brace contact' shooting is sold as an alternative technique for contact-distance handgun manipulation and retention. Here is a video illustrating the concept:
Video

Developed by retired WA police Sergeant Don Gulla, who has a resume including SWAT, academy instruction, and is the founder of Arrestling and the Chief Trainer for SIRT. This technique has been vetted and tested by many respected trainers in the WA LEO world and is taught to all Washington cops in academy.

Thoughts?
 

user12358

Regular Member
#2
I think that the technique in the video is dangerous and was developed from a flawed understanding of the problem initially displayed in the first few seconds of the video. When shooting from the traditional braced contact position you are delivering a few rounds into the pelvis to create space for you to get to proper handgun distance where you will then conclude the fight with upper thoracic and head hits to cause a physiological fight stop. If you happen to get a psychological fight stop from the brace and the few rounds to the pelvis then that is great but it isn't the expected or planned goal. Shots to the head or chest from the brace are not the intended goal and are when you get into trouble with flagging yourself.

Putting your second hand on the gun gives far too much leeway for hand slippage during contact and putting a round through your hand, all while leaving you unable to control your opponent in any meaningful way since you are all elbows now. To top it all off, if done flawlessly will leave you with an empty casing in the chamber which will need to address to deliver additional hits.

To avoid any calls of bias, this all holds true independent of having a compensator on your handgun or not and FWIW I do not use any compensators any more for completely unrelated issues.
 
#3
Ok so I watched the complete video and I wholeheartedly disagree with the techniques demonstrated.
I’m sure he means well but this is typical Rex Quan Do grab my wrist no my other wrist theory based training that is effective against an opponent doing step by step planned actions.
He’s absolutely right about the other techniques being adapted for flat range use and they are also useless without the why of the training being explained.
@user12358 is spot on with keeping the initial shots in the legs and pelvis and creating space.
I’m confident in saying this technique is not only unsafe, but is unrealistic and should not be taught to anyone.
 

Runcible

Runcible Works
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#5
From a parallel discussion on another forum: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37543-Shooting-from-Retention/page5

"It's a lot of hopes riding on one round, with quite a bit of commitment invested just for that singular chance.

Committing both hands from the get-go to the weapon in-hand, rather than allocating at least one for managing the opponent's hands\limbs or covering up, is pretty all-in. Opponents whom are fighting the person and not for the gun can readily start barraging hooks and overhands, or\and then shoot for a double-leg takedown; the counters by the defender don't play well with getting that one shot off, and may deviate the muzzle-line off-target even if they do fire.

Those I've seen really commit to it often spend a lot of time searching for that perfect window of opportunity or placement for that solo round to be fired within or into, and if\when they do get it off there is either a hard pause in the training while they search for acknowledgement of their investment or they tunnel in on running the slide (separating the hands in the process) and things usually get a bit free-form after that irrespective of the round's destination. Results less desirable. Additional strangeness from trigger-fingers sometimes being trapped within the trigger-guard by the over-wrapping hand, which is a significant concern.

Several of my folks come from orgs that teach two-handed contact shot protocol, and if memory serves it has always been a tool for when they are A) not part of the entanglement\FUT and B) are simultaneously managing the desire for a contact shot and the requirement to not muzzle friendlies and deconflict backstop issues. Huge trend towards it being associated with striker-fired weapons (flat backplate vs. swinging hammer), occasionally is taught with a one-hand-only variation which does not stand up to pressure well. It has been commented that most of the situations when it could\would be used, might be better addressed with a preceding\preparatory action rather than going straight to threading a muzzle through the group-FUT.

---

At a root level, I think the issue is that the problem is one of retaining the weapon in-hand after it has been drawn from the holster, and the solution doesn't quite address that. If the opponent's hands arrive upon the muzzle area first, than the defender's support hand over-wrapping that is both at a deficit for control of the muzzle-line and unlikely to be able to apply their follow-on striking. If the defender's hand arrives at the muzzle area first, then the defender has abdicated much of their means to resist the muzzle being slapped down (as with linear impact weapons, palm down = deviation downwards) in prelude to that overhand coming right over the top.

I think that doing it off-range with MMA gloves, mouthguards, helmets, and sims wherein BOTH training partners are operating under guidance that THEY are the "good guy" and the OTHER is the "bad guy" (more properly and with Craig's terminology: competitive\non-consensual) would be illuminating. I really think that it's overly gun- and shooting-focused, and that it doesn't account enough for opposing wills."

Re:
Re:
(Strange expectations of a fight over a gun OR a fist-fight with a gun coincidentally present)
 

Tripleryder

Wants to cover compensators with his hands.
#6
Agreed on policeone. Couldn’t find any other videos.

I think there’s one particular niche that this may be a valid concept.

Traditional retention position shooting techniques (pectoral index etc) are taught as a position to draw into. Intentionally introducing your gun into a close quarters fight.

Fundamental difference- This ‘brace contact’ technique may be a good tool for an unexpected close quarters fight, when the gun is already drawn. Maybe a tactical error caused a close quarter confrontation, now you’re fighting over the gun. Only one hand on the gun is a recipe for getting it taken away.
 

Runcible

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#7
I stand by the concern, that if the opponent puts a hand or hands onto the pistol, and I place both of my hands onto the pistol, that:

...at best, we are in detente, and there is no path to supremacy;
...at worst, we have over-committed and they're going to knock me the fuck out, take me down, or both.

If you make a bad timing decision or are blindsided into a take-away, and avoidance\better-decisions aren't options; then I think that one would be better served with either maintaining the TPI + managing hands + taking position, or taking head-position + stripping\shearing off grasping hands (possibly as the prelude to managing hands) before setting up a good timing decision so that the TPI can support firing if circumstances dictate.

The TPI does not exist solely as a position to draw into. It can be withdrawn into as terrain\structural influences restrict the space that one moves within, be withdrawn into due to forward movement of the practitioner or the approaching motion of the aggressor, or through what the fight allows or requires of the practitioner.

A variation of the braced contact shooting technique with a longarm may have far more applicability; but with that goes the additional length\handhold realities of such a weapon, the support hand generally already being engaged onto the weapon at the moment of takeaway, most such weapons being able to fire repeatably despite 4 hands sharing one weapon, and with the additional requirement of forward drive and possibly head positioning.
 
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Fatboy

Established
#8
After watching the video to see the technique, I will say that grabbing for the muzzle of a gun under the stress of a fight for life is not a good idea. The term clown shoes comes to mind.

I won't even bring up the whole throwing elbows while holding onto the gun aspect. An entangled fight sucks. Shitty tactics to escape that fight suck more.
 

rudukai13

Too Established
Network Support III
#9
The instructor contradicts himself within the video;

At 1:05 timestamp in the video, the instructor states “...even if I get the round off, the semi-auto’s now jammed - So we have a problem.”

He then goes on to advocate a technique that, when executed as intentioned, will induce a malfunction every single time (not even considering the risk of shooting yourself). Or, in his own words - Even if you get the round off, the semi-auto’s now jammed - So we have a problem.

He’s advocating a “solution” to what he sees as a problem that results in the exact same problem he’s trying to resolve
 

Fatboy

Established
#11
Anyone else notice he hooks his thumb into the trigger guard while flapping his arms?

Great idea. Put things even closer to the trigger while flailing around.
 
#14
This is probably equally at home in the Martial Arts and handgun forums..
This technique has been vetted and tested by many respected trainers in the WA LEO world and is taught to all Washington cops in academy.

Thoughts?
I was not taught that in the Academy in WA and I have not been taught that in any training with either agency I have worked with since 2014. In my humble opinion as a lowly patrol officer, that seems no bueno. I also have issues with him invoking the Lakewood 4 in pushing his technique but that is for another topic.

@Bill Blowers Have you seen any of this?
 
#15
Bluntly, I think that it can be another tool in the tool box. People use to - poo, poo red dot optics. I always like to think of the established and the new skill set that I can aquire to advance my personal skill set. I know that some were talking about putting your hand around the comp. This is not putting your hand around the comp.

This is a narrow window of opportunities that could be another skill set to add to the skill set profile. I did NOT know about this technique before you brought it up. So thanks to the original op, for exposing me to a new concept.

More tools are good. I plan on incorporating this into my next range session. First with gloves, then bare handed. I have an open mind. I don't know what I don't know and I am willing to learn. There is a saying that says that "knowing is a hinderence to learning.
 
#16
@Clay1 You’re right and you’re wrong. Yes dismissing something new as garbage because you don’t like it is not appropriate. This isn’t new and it’s being dismissed because it’s unsafe, ineffective in reality and there are better methods.
Each of our recruits fires their handgun holding the slide in the same manner in which they rack it. Support hand over the top behind The ejection port. They also fire it with their thumb behind the slide just to show them it won’t hurt them.
Advocating grabbing the barrel and fighting in that manner is not the best method.
While he demonstrates it with a laser I’d like to see it done with sims against a properly protected opponent of any skill level.
I’m sorry but I have to wave the BS flag on this one gents.
@Clay1 If you choose to try this live fire and mess up a glove won’t help you.
 

Runcible

Runcible Works
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#17
Clay1,

An overly-diverse skillset requires an untenable time commitment to sustain it; and in-extremis requires a greater amount of time to first diagnose the situation and then identify the most-appropriate solution.

Put succinctly, Hick’s Law adamantly disagrees with your position.

A modicum of techniques drilled to a high standard and to the point of automaticity in usage, serves most everyone more desirably.
 
#18
Clay1,

An overly-diverse skillset requires an untenable time commitment to sustain it; and in-extremis requires a greater amount of time to first diagnose the situation and then identify the most-appropriate solution.

Put succinctly, Hick’s Law adamantly disagrees with your position.

A modicum of techniques drilled to a high standard and to the point of automaticity in usage, serves most everyone more desirably.
As the FNG to tactical training, force on force, etc... I can say the instructors I have espouse the above. I believe this to be truth.
 
#19
Here is a video showing a wee bit of what was taught during my ECQC class last year. This video does not show the horizontal and vertical arm brace, but illustrates the concern with contact shooting. Unlike the Rex Kwan Do video...

 
#20
The most important thing he said is get training from a qualified instructor.
Many instructors demonstrate theoretical techniques knowing their students will most likely never be involved in any kind of use of force incident.