Beat up on the newbie

Runcibleman

Runcibleman

Member
So, I'm still listening to Modcast 184, but so far at 2h20m, it's been a lot of beating up on arrogant, ignorant people, lots of raging, and a little bit of good talk about how the one guy (no idea which one, I can't tell the names and voices) set up his PCC with a 25 yard zero and what the rationale behind that was, and what the result was. That was good. The rest? Not so much. I get it, there are lots more shitty shooters who like to talk like they're the greatest SME's on all matters shooting. What's new? I thought this wasn't ARFCOM General.

The talk about 2 second Bill Drills made me feel a little despondent. Under what conditions are you guys shooting these 2 second Bill Drills from draw? Competition style holsters or duty? I am going to assume, having seen him demo a bit, that Larry Vickers isn't a bad shot by any stretch of the imagination and is probably quite good, even if not exceptional by competition standards. So how should I take it that he posted a 3.9 second Bill Drill with one outside the black, drawing from concealment?

I'll have to try it this Friday when I get to range with the holster again (Walther PPQ from an OWB nothing special holster from Ares Tactical with full sweatguard, i.e. high, not low cut) and see how many I get in the A zone under time pressure, but I bet I won't get even half as good a score as Larry. So this begs the question, where the hell does one start to improve? You talked a lot about setting goals and breaking down the various parts of shooting that compose a sequence of shots or a drill. Great, but how does one then improve? I wish you would have talked about that a little more because I want to know. Such a shame that this episode was so heavy on the beatings and light on the practical advice. I want the guys back from the Two World Wars (Parts 1 & 2) shows, they were full of good knowledge even if they are an ornery bunch of cantakerous old (some not so old) farts.
 
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djsticky

Amateur
Regarding the bill drill standards. Most of the time it's talked about by the mods and in this community in general the conditions are from IWB concealment or a retention duty holster and shot at 7yds to an IPSC A zone.

I don't think I'm an SME, I'm just starting to feel like I'm on the right path so I will only offer advice that I've found helpful and take it with a grain of salt.

Where to start to improve? If I can assume your goal is to be a more proficient all around pistol shooter I would say this: Buy a shot timer, a brand new notebook, a stack of IPSC targets, print or buy a stack of B8s. Put together a small set of standards to shoot that encompass as many different individual skills as possible and go shoot them. Record the results and yourself on video if possible. Record them in great detail, 1st shot time, split times, reload times, transitions. Make notes of anything pertinent about misses ("didn't see the dot after reload", "called 3rd shot high" etc). Then once you get home review that data and see what you think the biggest and most impacting deficiency is. Figure out how to dry fire that deficiency, figure out how to economically live fire that deficiency. Do that for the rest of the week then the next week go shoot that standard again and record it in detail to assess efficacy of your practice plan. Make course adjustments from there, after the baseline it's about applying that approach to each subsequent identified deficiency and at some point adjusting your dry fire plan to maintain learned skills.

During this time seek professional instruction as well.

Always record as much data as you think will be helpful from your live fire sessions. Do the same for your dry fire if you think it will be helpful. But always gather data that you can refer to later with confidence.

Hope that makes sense and isn't off the mark. **Edit** I guess that's a lot of text, I don't know if you were being rhetorical or not. If so disregard everything except the bill drill comment haha!
 
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user12358

Regular Member
Runcibleman said:
I'll have to try it this Friday when I get to range with the holster again (Walther PPQ from an OWB nothing special holster from Ares Tactical with full sweatguard, i.e. high, not low cut) and see how many I get in the A zone under time pressure, but I bet I won't get even half as good a score as Larry. So this begs the question, where the hell does one start to improve? You talked a lot about setting goals and breaking down the various parts of shooting that compose a sequence of shots or a drill. Great, but how does one then improve?
Click to expand...

To answer your last question first, go seek professional instruction if you are unaware of how to progress in the individual skill blocks that make up larger drills. You will get the chance to see what right looks like and be told what you need to improve upon which will in turn allow you to work on progressing as you practice on your own.

As for the Bill drill, a 2 second run is a very quick run when done from a AIWB or a ALS style OWB holster. For reference, Jedi who appears to have been on the Modcast you are referencing has a 3.0 second run as his blue belt time and a 2.0 second run as his black belt time. You are basically doing 1.00 second draw and then running 0.20 splits after that. Watching the Larry Vickers video he broke his first shot at around 2.3 seconds and then ran about 0.35 splits for the rest of the drill.

When you say that you bet you won't even get half as good of a score as Larry I think you are being far too defeatist. You only need to beat a 7.80 second run. A 2.80 second draw from an OWB holster with no retention is going to feel like an absolute life time and then you only need to run 1.00 splits for your next 5 shots. I would strongly encourage that you either record yourself or have someone record you so that you can go back and review the footage and you will see all of the dead time and inefficiencies that you initially won't notice when doing live fire.
 
Runcibleman

Runcibleman

Member
djsticky said:
Where to start to improve? If I can assume your goal is to be a more proficient all around pistol shooter I would say this: Buy a shot timer, a brand new notebook, a stack of IPSC targets, print or buy a stack of B8s. Put together a small set of standards to shoot that encompass as many different individual skills as possible and go shoot them. Record the results and yourself on video if possible. Record them in great detail, 1st shot time, split times, reload times, transitions. Make notes of anything pertinent about misses ("didn't see the dot after reload", "called 3rd shot high" etc). Then once you get home review that data and see what you think the biggest and most impacting deficiency is.

Always record as much data as you think will be helpful from your live fire sessions. Do the same for your dry fire if you think it will be helpful. But always gather data that you can refer to later with confidence.
Click to expand...

Thanks, that's actually excellent advice! I'll start doing this!
 
tylerw02

tylerw02

Regular Member
In addition to the already excellent advice, I would highly recommend dry fire AND instruction. Dry fire is where speed gains happen. Bullseye shooting on the range is where you develop accuracy. Live fire drills is where it all comes together and you confirm your dry fire.

Buy a timer. Use it.

Start a journal. Use it.

Start a dry fire regime that has a track record of success. Stick to it.

Don’t chase gear. Get something that works and stock with it. Consider a backup pistol, holster, belt, pouches, etc.

Continue to seek instruction. It is easy to rest on your laurels and continue repeating technique that may or may not be the best available. Expose yourself to new methods and don’t give up on them until thoroughly vetting them.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
JLL2013

JLL2013

Regular Member
Hackathorn explicitly states that they are shooting that drill with a tighter accuracy standard...hence a slower time.

Don't measure yourself against LAV, set a goal, break it, then set a new goal.
 
J

JacobStraub

Newbie
Regarding a shot timer- what shot timers are recommended- found some FB threads but wanting to buy one as a solo shooter running drills at a local private range.
 
A

Assaultdog0351

Newbie
Tim Herron once broke down his process in a series of posts in a facebook group I am in and it helped me cut my times down.... does he do courses now?
 
Brap&Bang

Brap&Bang

Amateur
JacobStraub said:
Regarding a shot timer- what shot timers are recommended
Click to expand...

I use a app on Android called Splits. It costs the same as a fancy coffee and has par times and it’s adjustable for echo and sensitivity. We used it to finish a recent 3 gun match after the clubs timer crapped out. It is the only good shot timer app that I have found.
 
Crash-7

Crash-7

Newbie
Assaultdog0351 said:
Tim Herron once broke down his process in a series of posts in a facebook group I am in and it helped me cut my times down.... does he do courses now?
Click to expand...

Yes he does.

I took his Practical Performance class two weeks ago. Excellent class that teaches shooters how to train: (1. know what a deficiency looks like. 2. know how to find deficiencies in your shooting. 3. know how to train up those deficiencies. Repeat.)

He goes in depth on each step.
 
tylerw02

tylerw02

Regular Member
Another trainer to check out is Steve Anderson. He proposes the three mods of practice. Each skill that is part of the drill can be practiced in speed mode to get your body used to the Bill drill. After taking his class, I managed a 0.64 sec draw to first shot and 1.52 sec drill when operating in speed mode. This lets you know what your body is physically capable of in live fire. While I didn’t run it clean at that speed, I learned what it felt like.

My old Bills clean were just above 2 seconds clean, now I can run a 1.70-1.80 run and see the sights and it, crazy as it sounds, feels slow.


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