At what point does equipment become a better investment than more training?

Door

Newbie
I brought this up on the Discord server the other day, but the more I think about it, the more I think a discussion on the forum would allow for it to be approached more thoughtfully.

I understand the generally correct response to the question is "it depends", but I do wonder if a general principle can be applied here.

I think we all recognize that ammunition right now is quite scarce, and much more expensive than we're used to for most common firearms- this has made it much more difficult for most people to train like they'd like to. For many people this may extend even beyond firearms- gyms may still be closed or operating with limited hours in some communities, some martial arts schools may still have limited hands-on sparring, hands-on job training may be supplanted with often lower quality zoom meetings and webinars. I pose this question specifically in reference to firearms, but I think these concerns can apply to a lot of facets of preparedness, fitness etc right now- albeit with different considerations.

In my own case, what got me thinking about this was noticing that while ammo costs have gone up substantially, things like optics, lights, etc have generally been fairly stable (with the notable exception of budget brands). I had been considering getting into the realm of magnified optics for rifles and red dots for pistols, two things that I have not previously owned or had significant experience with. As someone usually balling on a budget, up to now my usual conclusion was that my dollar would be better invested in more range time. Right now, however, a case of 5.56 or 9mm is often going for something equivalent to the price of entry level rifle optics or good quality pistol optics.

I think it is generally understood that equipment can sometimes enhance or expand our abilities beyond what we could achieve through training (magnified optics extending one's ability to PID at distance), or enhance our training itself (I don't have experience firsthand, but I have heard it enough from people I trust that pistol red dots allow one to see more finely how well they are stabilizing their gun). Of course live ammunition is not our only option for training these days, with dry fire always being an option.

That said, any new equipment we expect to put to serious use will demand training and familiarization. Which leads to a second concern- if training is limited right now anyway, are we really better off "enhancing our abilities" with equipment we don't know inside and out yet, or are we safer getting in all of the training we can on the things we already know? That spiffy new 1-6x may enhance our ability to see a threat at distance, but if we're not as comfortable with it as the red dot or iron sights we moved up from, are we just presenting ourselves with a new set of problems?

I am sure this question presents itself at all levels of experience and training, and it existed before the ammo crisis, albeit less pronounced than now. And, as I said before, I'm sure the general answer is "it depends". But I did want to see what people had to say about this, and I'm curious if anybody thinks any general principles apply here.
 

chasnojm

Regular Member
With most pursuits that require equipment, the most simple answer I can think of is when the equipment holds you back from the next level of performance/goal. I've used this for driving (HPDE/autoX), golf, skiing, and shooting etc. Its important to note that the skill gains in shooting can be done with such a minimal set of equipment as the entry to good gear is low (aka a Glock 19 etc) is why a lot of people say focus on the skill versus the hardware. Eventually the you'll be able to master the shooting capabilities of a glock and need something that is faster, more accurate etc that necessitates a specific tool to achieve it. Also you could replace or upgrade things to be more reliable.
 

Diz

Regular Member
Ha ha, this ought to start a lively discussion. The "problem" is I don't think anyone has had more time and opportunity to train than we have had, in the last few decades. At least since the invention of black powder; dunno.

That being said, I think the general level of marksmanship skill is still very low. The guys hanging out here are out-liers. Even with ammo prices sky-high, I would submit training is still more important than weapons and equipment. Perhaps dry fire and even mil-sim/airsoft could replace a large chunk of live fire. So there is much that can be without live fire. Back in the stone age, 90% of our training was blank fire, with live fire being reserved for re-quals and larger scale exercises. So cutting back on live fire would not be any big change to someone like myself. It's only been the past few decades where extensive live fire training has replaced blank fire, especially in spec ops units.

So if ammo pricing/availability is your only criteria here, I'd say being trained up with what ya got is more important than upgrading your kit. And this from the world's biggest gear queer. I'd wait til ammo prices stabilized to buy more live rounds but I'd explore alternate training techniques as well. I just bought a high-end milsim/airsoft rifle for training purposes. I finally have a "real" MK18 URG-I ha ha ha.
 

pointblank4445

Established
For the sake of discussion...

Pound for pound, I think an argument can be made that there may be a point in the precision/sniper world that certain equipment acquisitions or upgrades could result in larger performance gains than than supplementary classes.
NOTE: part of this is due to the overall increased costs of PR/Sniper training due to higher ammo costs, higher tuition costs, and often farther travel associated for the fewer venues for such things. Given that and the much wider variance in entry vs mid-level vs top-end of the guns and tools, I'd say this is an area where one could lean heavier on the kit argument once basic skills and understanding are taught.


Everybody's ballin' on a budget (but budgets vary wildly). If you've got critical capability gaps and the means to correct it, go nuts. If not, save those nickels for the rainy days ahead.
 

Diz

Regular Member
I do not doubt that there are dudes here who could out-shoot their present weapons and benefit from an upgrade. However they/you are the exception to the rule. Most guys have more weapon than their skill can shoot. So if you are talking about the less than one percentile that trains to this level, sure an equipment upgrade might trump sustainment training.

Within the context of unconventional warfare, which might resemble the kind of violence a typical civilian might see, i.e. urban unrest, protest/riot/looting, there are a variety of skill sets that might be addressed, such as defensive driving/breaking contact; dismounted patrolling/getting home on foot; fortifying/protecting the home, etc. Live fire training might be just a small but important portion of the overall training plan. Of course your situation may vary wildly.

I have watched my SF buddy for over 15 years now. And while he is a superb shooter, that is only a small sub-set of their overall training plan. It seems many folks key on the live fire shooting but tend to downplay the other important skill sets that may be required. Certain guys are excellent shooters, who then guide the annual training for the rest of the team, but they also have many other specialties required for them to do their job.

We all know these, but it bears repeating. They have medical specialists. Engineering specialists. Communications specialists. Intelligence specialists. And operations/command specialists. Not to mention weapons of course. I would submit that the average bear, just trying to get through these times, would be prudent to address some kind of training for gunshot wound treatment, comms, home repair/hardening, intel to avoid shit in the first place, and the procedures for analyzing, planning and conducting training for home/self defense. Not even mentioning admin and logistics. So obviously a small group would be optimum vs a single family/dude. So not to get off in the weeds here, but just because ammo is not available for live fire, does not mean there are many other training and equipment procurement opportunities.

So I don't view this as an ammo/ live fire training either/or decision, but rather a selection of other skill sets/equipment that might be required to accomplish your mission. Including weapons stuff. But if this is way beyond the scope of what the OP wanted to discuss, then carry on.
 
It varies broadly on what you mean by "equipment."
- If you've got a firearm/optic system that you're shooting at exactly it's base mechanical precision, with effectively zero shooter-induced dispersion, then you get to decide whether a higher degree of mechanical performance is possible and the juice is worth the squeeze. This is very rarely attained by anyone on any platform.
- I see inquiries about the MantisX, Coolfire, and other dry-fire devices for Pistol specifically fairly often. My response is always the same: the Ben Stoeger's, JJ Racaza's, and Steve Andersons don't use those devices. Instead of buying a $100-300 device, spend less than $100 on Steve Anderson's book "Refinement and Repetition," and similar titles by Ben Stoeger. Dry fire by pressing through the trigger on the first shot and just pressing the dead trigger (if applicable) twice as hard as it would take to break a shot on subsequent shots in any dry-fire drill. I have weighted dry-fire magazines from Double Alpha Academy that I like, so maybe consider those, but you just don't need electronic devices or a CO2 blowback device to dry-fire.
- Beyond those two particular things the question overall becomes -> Do you have a philosophy of use not filled by equipment that you currently have? I.e. do you want to be able to do more in low-light and you don't have a quality handheld or WML? Do you want/need to be able to work without low-light? If your POU/Mission isn't filled by your gear and the juice is worth the squeeze and acquiring said gear then go for it. After that it's fine judgment on budgetary constraints and "buy once cry once."
 

khower

Newbie
I'd say that when a piece of gear is so sub par that is holding back performance to standard metrics it should be replaced.
 

Arete

Regular Member
It varies broadly on what you mean by "equipment."
- If you've got a firearm/optic system that you're shooting at exactly it's base mechanical precision, with effectively zero shooter-induced dispersion, then you get to decide whether a higher degree of mechanical performance is possible and the juice is worth the squeeze. This is very rarely attained by anyone on any platform.
- I see inquiries about the MantisX, Coolfire, and other dry-fire devices for Pistol specifically fairly often. My response is always the same: the Ben Stoeger's, JJ Racaza's, and Steve Andersons don't use those devices. Instead of buying a $100-300 device, spend less than $100 on Steve Anderson's book "Refinement and Repetition," and similar titles by Ben Stoeger. Dry fire by pressing through the trigger on the first shot and just pressing the dead trigger (if applicable) twice as hard as it would take to break a shot on subsequent shots in any dry-fire drill. I have weighted dry-fire magazines from Double Alpha Academy that I like, so maybe consider those, but you just don't need electronic devices or a CO2 blowback device to dry-fire.
- Beyond those two particular things the question overall becomes -> Do you have a philosophy of use not filled by equipment that you currently have? I.e. do you want to be able to do more in low-light and you don't have a quality handheld or WML? Do you want/need to be able to work without low-light? If your POU/Mission isn't filled by your gear and the juice is worth the squeeze and acquiring said gear then go for it. After that it's fine judgment on budgetary constraints and "buy once cry once."
It varies broadly on what you mean by "equipment."
- If you've got a firearm/optic system that you're shooting at exactly it's base mechanical precision, with effectively zero shooter-induced dispersion, then you get to decide whether a higher degree of mechanical performance is possible and the juice is worth the squeeze. This is very rarely attained by anyone on any platform.
- I see inquiries about the MantisX, Coolfire, and other dry-fire devices for Pistol specifically fairly often. My response is always the same: the Ben Stoeger's, JJ Racaza's, and Steve Andersons don't use those devices. Instead of buying a $100-300 device, spend less than $100 on Steve Anderson's book "Refinement and Repetition," and similar titles by Ben Stoeger. Dry fire by pressing through the trigger on the first shot and just pressing the dead trigger (if applicable) twice as hard as it would take to break a shot on subsequent shots in any dry-fire drill. I have weighted dry-fire magazines from Double Alpha Academy that I like, so maybe consider those, but you just don't need electronic devices or a CO2 blowback device to dry-fire.
- Beyond those two particular things the question overall becomes -> Do you have a philosophy of use not filled by equipment that you currently have? I.e. do you want to be able to do more in low-light and you don't have a quality handheld or WML? Do you want/need to be able to work without low-light? If your POU/Mission isn't filled by your gear and the juice is worth the squeeze and acquiring said gear then go for it. After that it's fine judgment on budgetary constraints and "buy once cry once."
Ben came out of nowhere and ABSOLUTELY CRUSHED EVERYONE in production for several years running, using lowly Beretta 92s, the only mods of which were a F/O front sight and some beveling to the mag well. I know for a fact, because got to handle his pistol when taking a class from him about 12 yrs ago.

Later on he moved onto another brand of DA/SA pistol, but he got a lot done because he dry fired a lot.

Steve put it the work to become a really good shooter, and he knew how to get good fast, because he had put in the work to be a good guitarist and he applied many of the same things to that.

Get some good equipment, get some 1:1 time with a coach who knows what they are doing and can teach you how to train, and that’ll get you really far.

Places like Universal Shooting Academy have people like Shannon Smith who provide 1:1 instruction . . . That right there is the most effective shortcut you will ever find, IMO.
 

blitz

Newbie
Depends on whether that new piece of gear is going to provide you with a capability training can not or if you have met the mechanical limits of your current gear.


No amount of training will let you magically see in the dark like night vision can or shoot faster and/or more accurately that the weapon you use is mechanically capable of.
 

Joe _K

Established
If your individual firearms, related gear, and equipment is lacking, and you would rather allocate normal ammunition resources towards something you probably already should’ve acquired, then fix the capability gap. As an example, a rifle you own that doesn’t have a good quality optic, light, sling, decent trigger, free float rail, grip or stock ergonomic upgrades etc.
For a handgun you own and haven’t had milled for an optic yet, only have the 2 or 3 magazine the gun was sold with, don’t have a holster that fits your chosen enablers, then maybe skipping on $1/round Wolf Gold or Tula is a solid financial move. The other options are buy less ammo, or buy more money.
Something to keep in mind is that QC/QA have reportedly fallen across the full spectrum of firearms, ammunition, and related equipment, so make wise purchase selections, and don’t get hosed.
 

Tuukka

Newbie
I have always believed that what ever you do, not just firearms related, buy quality products/gear.

As especially for a beginner, if your equipment is messed up, that will hinder your progress.

Does not have to be the most expensive, just stuff that works and does not break.

There is a difference in gearing/guzzing up to the max and zero know how to use them vs. just having good stuff to begin with.

If you buy cheap, not only that they might fail, but if you decide to upgrade or just get rid of them/stop what your doing with them, you wont get much in selling them. If you have quality products, you have a much better chance to recouping some money.
 
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