Are M14's a suitable DMR?

ptrlcop

Established
In my opinion, on the LE side, No.

The M14 is the antithesis of what I would want for this role. Big, heavy, not that accurate, with a new manual of arms to learn. I could much more easily fill MY idea of a DMR with a stock M4 and some training.

MY idea of a LE DM is somebody who can make hostage shots inside 50yds and make solid hits to 250 under field conditions and still be able to stack up and do entries. A DRMO M16, qms trigger, and aimpoint/3x magnifier would be much closer to my idea on the cheap.
 

Chad H/BC520

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
I agree, we need to specify DMR in the LE side of things or the Military. I can only speak for the LE. LE needs a gun that can fulfill the role inside of a structure, not just open spaces. It needs to work at closer ranges of less than 25 yards for hostage issues that are evolving faster than SWAT can respond, and be effective I feel out to 300 yards. It needs to fit in vehicles and have the ability to be supported easily when maintenance or repairs are required. A M14/M1A does not do any of these well for LE. A M4 works much better to start with.
 

thomaspara1

Newbie
I have carried an M14 in EBR stock in combat, and honestly, it sucked. Yeah its .308 and yeah it packs a punch and it did offer the ability to provide decent accuracy out to 800+ meters. The downside was its bulkiness, and I only had a handful of times it actually came into use and that was mostly just to help in observation of enemy combatants. In a military application, I'm not a big fan of the M14 being used as a DMR asset.
In my opinion the M14 really is not suited well for the role of a DMR in LE either. In my experience within LE, I believe that the role of DMR within an agency can vary drastically from each agency and environment that its officers work within. I believe that using a quality AR platform along with an optic that provides the right type of magnification as well as using ammunition that provides the ballistics that are within the specs required. I have seen a few of my colleagues using 14.5" barreled BCM guns with Geissele triggers (SSA-E), and Leupold Mk 6's (Tremor-2 Reticle), using Black Hills M262, get awesome capability out to 700+ yards. I believe that an LE DMR has a lot of freedom and that anyone that fills this role, can accomplish this better with an AR type rifle than with the M14.
 

borebrush

Not Pumpkin
M14s are maintenance pigs... You need direct, skilled armorer support to maintain and tweak them as needed. And much is needed.

Operationally, a DM needs to blend within squad and platoon operations. Ease of use and magazine interchangeability are crucial.

Secondly, DMs are not snipers and they do not get the training time and ammo to master a new weapon... An AR FOW makes sense. The Mk12 would still be viable if it werent for another gun. The Mk12s we specd out at DS are the shiznit. mod1 uppers on M4 lowers with SSF tiggers and A5 stocks. Absolute rape whistles
 

M118LR

Newbie
Takes a lot of work to get a M14 on the level of a decent AR 10. During an advance sniper course we had a DMR (Marine M14 in MM stock), it was used as fun gun and was shot at the end of the day or during free time. For quals and serious shooting the MK11s took over. There was no debate over it, the Mk11s shot better and were more familiar in operation, besides not having to grease your roller and double checking the scope mount everytime you looked at it. I own and love my M1A in an EBR stock and have taken it to 1k yds no problem on man sized steel. But its just cause of its looks that I own it (i'm shallow)

So can they be suitable as DMRs? They CAN be, but with better, cheaper, and more accurate options out there, why should they be?
 
One o f the biggest problems with the M14/M1A as a DMR is that no matter how accurate you make it on the range, it will go inaccurate in the field. That was shown over and over again with the M21 and with the incarnations of White Horse, and EBR systems. I worked with the 82d for a day trying to get their weapons back on course after a deployment. No go. The number of problems are just insurmountable with that system for accuracy in the field.

The problem is a balance of accuracy and durability. The more accurate a weapon, the less durable. The more durable the less accurate. The M14 falls in the durable less accurate zone. To make it more accurate makes it very much less durable and it falls back to battle rifle in the field. It is the nature of the beast. That was the problem with the M21.

Everyone figured that since the M14 NM could shoot like a house afire it should make one hell of a sniper rifle. Problem was the M14NM was babied by the armorers and every night it was twicked. The M21 came out and rules forbade anyone but NM armorers form touching it and no one but Benning had those. Now add the fact that spring set would very with temp, and your cold bore would change, as the springs warmed up your zero would change as would the barrel harmonics. As a sniper you did not have sighters to get on paper. And when you crawled around some mud hole getting in position your zero was toast. Reason why when we started looking at a new sniper rifle in 85, all semis were banned from consideration. None could pass the field shooting part.

Now can you have a very accurate M14, hell yes, will it stay accurate in the field, hell no. The closest we came was with the stock insert and scope system made in MA by an old man whose son was a sniper in Viet Nam. That was Brookfield Precision and our incarnation was the M26. The Army dropped it due to Gen Guest having backed the M24 so hard, and the Navy took it over. It still went no where though.
 

MattJames

Certified Derpologist
Staff member
Moderator
I love it when people cite examples of Camp Perry rifles shooting well, thus the M14 is viable. Nothing drives me more up the wall... "Ok genius... is Camp Perry a realisitic representation of conditions that your average grunt or Sniper will endure or subject their rifles too?" This is what happens when emotional attachment and bias rules the damned decision making process, logic goes out the window.
 
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David Bahde

Newbie
I have been an M1A / M14 fan for years, had some that are very accurate. Can they work, sure, but today they are just not suitable for a DMR or LE role, not one that requires consistent precision. Given improvements in the AR10 / SR25 platform the M1A is just too costly to make consistently accurate by comparison. Most of the .308 based AR's I test today, even the stock rifles out shoot my most costly M1A match rifles of old with much less weight. Precision models rival some of my bolt guns from even 10 years ago. Decisions concerning firearms are often more hormonal than cerebral, but from a purely functional and practical perspective the M1A is no longer viable given the choice of just about any quality AR10 / SR25
 
If I were in Trashcanistan, I'd rather have an M14 EBR over an M4 out in open terrain. The same if I were back in the Iraqi litterbox. Or if I were back in northern Baghdad getting shot at from across the river. If I were kicking doors with the M14, I would be hating life. That said, the Mk17, M110K3 and similar rifles should be used to replace all M14s for a myriad of reasons.

For LE work, it has no place given that .308ARs are so accessible at this point.
 
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