Any other HK Fan's here?

Titus66

Newbie
Here‘s my P30, currently V4, but soon to be V1 again. Full NP3+ treatment, with TruGlo TFX Pro sights.
I also have a P2000 V2 9mm, and 2-P30SK’s, both V1.

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JLL2013

Regular Member
I've always appreciated HK's superb engineering but the user interface leaves something to be desired more often than not. In a perfect world I would love to stick Joe Chambers in the HK design team with unlimited resources and see what they could produce.
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Bill Assande

Amateur
I've always appreciated HK's superb engineering but the user interface leaves something to be desired more often than not. In a perfect world I would love to stick Joe Chambers in the HK design team with unlimited resources and see what they could produce.
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Joe Chambers and Co with an unlimited budget working for almost any company would be amazing. I would rather it was HK too but I already have a hard enough time affording them. How do you like the HK45c and who did the milling on yours? I keep waffling between a USP45c or the HK45c as my next purchase. I went with the HK45 over the full size USP45 but the more I shoot my other USP pistols the more I think I need to give it another chance.
 

JLL2013

Regular Member
Ashbury Precision Ordnance did the milling. I think they did a very good job. The pistol is long gone as I just couldn't justify it and it was too much pain to make it viable (as depicted by that little light on it). I think the 45C is a better gun than the USP, the updates do make a difference. Very accurate, good reliability, etc etc. It just never shot as well as a 1911 that has the same capacity etc etc.

Joe Chambers and Co with an unlimited budget working for almost any company would be amazing. I would rather it was HK too but I already have a hard enough time affording them. How do you like the HK45c and who did the milling on yours? I keep waffling between a USP45c or the HK45c as my next purchase. I went with the HK45 over the full size USP45 but the more I shoot my other USP pistols the more I think I need to give it another chance.
 

Smith

Regular Member
I have a VP9. I quite like it. But seems like the P30 LEM is secretly what all the guys in the know prefer? Does it actually make a difference?
 

pointblank4445

Established
I have a VP9. I quite like it. But seems like the P30 LEM is secretly what all the guys in the know prefer? Does it actually make a difference?

Who are these "guys in the know" you speak of?

First, do you fully understand what the LEM is exactly?...if not, no big deal as some do not comprehend it. Merely asking as I (and @Default.mp3 can back me up) there's no shortage of threads on HKPro on people who have not handled one trying to figure out what it is.

In my several years of shooting HK45's and Expert 9's in Variant 9 (single action, thumb safety, no de-cocker), VP9's, and P2000's in the Todd Green LEM config (call it 1.5)and attempting to monkey with P30's in V1, Todd Green and the 4.1 lem (short throw), here is my take:

If one insists upon a P-series/USP series/HK45 series especially for carry and particularly in AIWB, the lem design offers some comfort (as I'm aware some getting into AIWB aren't keen on stuffing some types of guns down their pants in the early stages) in having the hammer at rest but not have to deal with the pain of dealing with the awful HK service DA to merely get to the "meh" but serviceable SA in the standard pistol configuration. That being said, I genuinely feel that while the LEM ignition system combined with the general qualities of these HK triggers can easily be learned and offer fair performance, I feel its ultimate capacity for performance has a lower ceiling than that of a good DA/SA or a good striker gun.
 

Smith

Regular Member
Who are these "guys in the know" you speak of?
For example John Correia of Active Self Protection. He talks about it in this video:

I've watched a few videos about the LEM trigger and from what I understand, it's a DA/SA trigger where the first DA pull is very light and short compared to the typical, long, very heavy DA pull. So it almost feels like the same trigger pull even on the first pull. Plus, like you mention, it gives you a built-in "gadget" device to press your thumb on when reholstering.

That said, I've never shot a DA/SA or LEM HK. I've shot a 1911 and the trigger was fantastic, but not sure if that was at all related to it being hammer-fired or not.
 

pointblank4445

Established
I've watched a few videos about the LEM trigger and from what I understand, it's a DA/SA trigger where the first DA pull is very light and short compared to the typical, long, very heavy DA pull. So it almost feels like the same trigger pull even on the first pull. Plus, like you mention, it gives you a built-in "gadget" device to press your thumb on when reholstering.

That said, I've never shot a DA/SA or LEM HK. I've shot a 1911 and the trigger was fantastic, but not sure if that was at all related to it being hammer-fired or not.

It's a design/parts where the mainspring gets cocked when cycled/running the slide but the hammer returns to a state of rest (does not stay back and cocked) when the trigger is let out so that the user basically has to go through the whole DA trigger motion but does NOT have to apply the pressure necessary to cock the mainspring/hammer as one would with a traditional DA/SA; there is a small bit of pressure required to get the "uncocked" hammer back to a cocked position but it is minimal. Think: SA trigger pull weight + 10-15% and with the full DA trigger throw.

Depending on which "variant" you get, affects how it feels:
V1= "light" LEM and offers the essentially the same weight as an single action trigger. Con: is that the trigger spring is weak and is slow to return which can affect speed
V2= "heavy" LEM which is a noticeably heavier spring package that has a stiffer trigger return but also a heavier trigger break
V4.1= essentially a V2 package with different components to reduce initial trigger uptake/travel about 5mm or 1/3"
"TGS" or "Todd Green Special" is essentially what one would consider V1.5 in that it uses the heavier trigger return spring for a harder return but the other springs are "light" as to not have the heaviest break. IMHO this is the most practical in most cases for carry. The only downside is the square stock trigger spring has a higher capacity for breakage compared to the lighter trigger return spring
"Hybrid Match" = is the mix/match of HK match sear/spring components with LEM


LEM springs.jpg
 

Smith

Regular Member
Oh wow, I didn't realize there was so much variation.

So in your opinion, even the best LEM trigger isn't worth an upgrade over the VP9 striker trigger? Guess the thumb-on-hammer safety is nice for AIWB, but if that's the only upside, I'm not sure it's worth it. Especially if you say it's actually a lower performance ceiling than a good striker fired gun (which I assume includes the VP9?) In what way is the ceiling lower, in your experience?
 

pointblank4445

Established
You do what's right for YOU...not what I think, or John, or whoever thinks. Ultimately it's YOUR gun.

First, let's be frank on HK hammer-fired triggers in the USP/P30/P2000/HK45 series. You don't hear the words "smooth" or "crisp" to describe them very often. The SA in all of them are like an OEM Gen 5...not great but good enough to not be a problem when I'm looking at other redeeming features that I may value.

Now to the LEM...first, what gets people into trouble with shooting pistols and triggers?
- Pull weight?
- Inconsistency?
- Extra trigger movement/travel?

Well, depending on which flavor of LEM you pick, you get to add some of each in varying levels. If we get into the weeds here, adding these complications to the trigger press ultimately requires more input from the user, and now the capacity for error increases. I do believe it to be a technically more difficult trigger to master due to the aforementioned characteristics with no redeeming mechanical properties for the user to exploit.

I also don't think I'm alone in this. You've got a wide array of shooters here with DA/SA guys in the know leaning on the CZ, Beretta, and some Sig P series guns sprinkled in. There's no shortage of worked up Glocks, Sigs, Walthers, and even some HK's on the striker end of things. And you've got the 1911/2011 crowd with some fringe cocked-n-locked types. The number of guys willingly gravitating toward the LEM is pretty small, and those that do are leaning on it for something other than performance economy.
 
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