Aimpoint vs Eotech

[MattJames]

The dreaded topic has come up, so I'll drop my 02 cents in to the pot. Granted, this is somewhat anecdotal, but I've had the same anecdotal experiances corroborated by numerous people, and my experience is by no means a simple sample of one, but not nearly as extensive as many others in this regard.

Eotech
I've seen the fated battery connector issue at least 3 separate occasions, one of which was a .mil buddy of mine's and 2 were during training for my current job. Several lenses were loose, including on one of the ones I was issued. In the space of maybe a two day shooting package we had 5 go down total out of maybe 15 shooters. To be fair these had been road hard put away wet. The battery life if your not using primo SF quality 123's is absolute shit... the actual battery life claims still aren't even close. If they claim 800 hours on good batteries, I'd hazard its more like 400-600 environment dependant. It has an auto shut off at 8 hours.... I've had plenty of instances were operations well exceeded that.

Aimpoint-
I've never had a case were I have lost zero. I have had the mount get twerked and that caused a shift, but it was a simple enough issue to rectify and almost a perfect 8 clicks to the left to fix. Must of waked it hard to shift a Larue T1 mount. I purchased a T1 in earlier 09. I have only just recently in the last 6 months replaced the battery, and this was after a 12 month deployment were I kept the battery on constantly, day/night, in extreme heat. I've seen M68's get fucked up and they hold zero as long as the mount is installed correctly when issued (note- not a problem of the sight itself... but the shit mounts used by the Army). I've seen the illum knobs broken off, but they still work with a little gerber magic in the field. I have yet to see one broke broke... like entirely fucked or broken internally were it would not hold zero or adjust so far, and I have close to 4-5 of the damned things, with the T1 2 MOA holding top spot. Have not messed with the T2 yet.

I like the reticle on the Eotech and the FOV... but the bulk and issues with the design frankly make it a non-starter for me in almost every way. But a reticle is not enough for me to buy in to a system, no matter how much I like that one feature. I need something tough, consistent, that is always there, that can be counted on. The batteries are cheap when they are already inexpensive and never need changing so running cost is extremely low. I can source watch batteries over here in a third world country and don't need to carry around a million spares. I can leave it on so I can grab it and know its going to be there because I don't have to remember to turn it off or on to save every minute of battery life. Its simple, highly rugged, and I agree with LAV here- the best combat optic available on the market in the RDS category.

 

[Matt Landfair]

I have experienced EOfailure on a personally owned one- a 512. After that I swore them off and got an Aimpoint M4s. I recently acquired an EO XPS3-0 that is on the 7.5" upper. I have already experienced a dead battery with the EO and haven't shot it much.

 

[AresGear_Jake]

I had a EoTech 553 blow itself apart during use on a 12ga 870 (which I had already verified with EoTech Corporate would be ok). I broke a T1 using it on a G17L slide. While I prefer the Aimpoint, I think it's critical to remember that everything breaks, and more complicated things have more ways to break. Use whichever one fits your needs best.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MattJames]

Agreed on the T1, anything breaks. To be fair, In the case of the T1 used on a slide it is being used for an application it wasn't necessarily designed for.

 

[AresGear_Jake]

::shrug::

Seems to me, since it was on an Aimpoint mount designed to fit into a Glock rear sight track, they must have at least suspected it would be used on Glocks...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bronson]

Operation:

EOTECH POSITIVES:

1) Field Expedient Range Finder

The EOtech reticle can serve as a field expedient range finder for quick firing solutions. See Mike Pannone’s M4/M16 handbook for a great illustration of that fact.

In our experience we found you can still have relatively accurate range find for squatting, sitting, crouching targets by halving everything. This is something you can practice dry with an LRF and an Eotech.

2) 1 MOA Dot & 65 MOA Circle

The 1 MOA Dot allows for greater accuracy by the shooter as it’s a smaller size dot. Trying to superimpose a 4 MOA M68 onto the head of a 300 meter target can prove difficult.

The 65 MOA circle is more subjective depending on end users – some tout it for CQB, others don’t. You can use it as built-in target reference point for CQB distances – but in so doing you are no longer applying an offset hold based off the actual target, you’ll be changing the reticle hold.

3) Shooting A Moving Target

The Eotech is vastly superior at shot correction and leading a moving target compared to the Aimpoint. The 65 MOA circle with the 1 MOA dot allows you to observe bullet splash and correct a lot easier.

Our TTP for movers was to start shooting with sights on target and gradually increase your lead with follow-on shots. The better soldiers got at judging range and target speed, the faster they could work a firing solution and adjust as needed. Our best studs got to the point where they could get on target, apply the appropriate lead, and start hitting with the 2nd or 3rd shot. 1st shots were hit or miss as bad guys don’t have always have a set target speed due to fear, terrain features to navigate over, other bullets cracking by them / hitting close to them giving them super speed, et al.

An M249 / M240 / MK48 with an Eotech is flat out ridiculous for putting down movers.

4) Wider FOV (Field Of View)

I’m a bit faster with the Eotech than the Aimpoint. I also like the wider FOV as it allows me to see multiple targets through the optic better compared to Aimpoint tubes.

EOTECH NEGATIVES:

1) Auto-Shutoff Feature

No combat optic should have an auto-shutoff feature as it is No Value Added. In short, it is a hardware solution to a software problem. I believe Eotech instituted it due to not wanting end users to run their optic on all the time which would drain batteries at a cyclic rate. There should be a way to disable the auto-shutoff feature. I am about to buy an Eotech and send it to an engineer to see if it is possible. Combat rifles (and thus combat optics) should be immediately ready to go with no adjustments required.

This is not as big an issue for me personally – typically over an 8 hour period I will have to adjust brightness once due to different light conditions anyway. TTP’s can be instituted to raise/lower brightness settings during security halts, et al. It’s more the fact that I shouldn’t have to do these things in the first place.

2) Durability Issues

Battery connector and compartment failures, lead failures, lens breakage, shorter than projected battery life issues have all been reported. Our Arms Room had more broken Eotechs than Aimpoints, at about a 8:1 ratio (Eotech 552’s vs. Aimpoint M68 CCO). Of course, I also had a personal EOtech 512 that kept zero and experienced no failures whatsoever and provided honorable service on everything from an M4 to M249 to MK48 and a M2.

3) Battery Life

Battery and battery life has made huge progressions in the technological field. Eotechs are simply not on the level of Aimpoint’s batteries and battery life. When I can run an optic for a year and not have to worry about battery life replacement – that is a good thing. When you extrapolate numbers at the Organizational Level for how much money you will have to expend for batteries for both – it is particularly eye-opening.

The best way to accurately gauge battery life for your Eotech is to set the optic up for 8-Hour Shutoff, turn it on, and leave it. Every time you pass by it and it is turned off, make a tally mark on a sheet and turn it back on, adjust bright level up/down, and repeat.

4) Commitment To Primary End User

For a company that secured its footing in large part due to military orders and contracts, I would expect them to be more amenable to that particular target market. Meaning – in lieu of developing things like zombie sights, maybe they would listen to .mil end user feedback and fix issues such as battery connectors, auto shut-off, et al.

Then there is the fact of Eotech lodging a protest with SOCOM (all the while touting that SOCOM uses Eotechs) after SOCOM got mad about several issues with the Eotech optics which led to the most epic of pee-pee slaps to the company - http://www.gao.gov/decisions/bidpro/311453.htm..

Eotech CS used to be atrocious, I hear it has gotten better.

Initially, I hated the Eotech as I had the preconceived notion that it would be a solid reticle in lieu of a bunch of laser points attempting to be a reticle. I found it incredibly distracting. Over the years I’ve just gotten more used to it.

My next RDS purchase will be the EXPS 3 Series with a G33 Magnifier.

 

[Bronson]

Here is something we used at the Organizational level. This was designed by LTC Freddie J. Blish to highlight sustainment costs of keeping optics running with batteries.

NOTE: Prices have not been adjusted for inflation to 2015.

Those optics compared were only those that are in use by the U.S. military: the old and new M68 CCOs: Aimpoint CompM4, M3, and M2 and the EOTech 552.A65 & 557.AR223 I recently updated this analysis with Aimpoint and EOTech sights that are commonly used for civilian and LEO.

Aimpoint CompM4 MSR + Life Cycle Cost $780
Life Cycle Cost - 80,000 Hours w/ AA Lithium Battery
CompM4 MSR $780
Weight - CompM4 335g

Aimpoint CompM3 QRP Mount MSR + Life Cycle Cost $678
Life Cycle Cost – 50,000 Hours w/ CR 1/3N Lithium Battery = 2 Batteries X $3.49 = $7
CompM3 MSR $556 + QRP Mount w/Spacer MSR $115
Weight – CompM3 w/ QRP Mount 335g

Aimpoint CompM2 QRP Mount MSR + Life Cycle Cost $619
Life Cycle Cost – 20,000 Hours w/ CR 1/3N Lithium Battery = 4 Batteries X $3.49 = $14
CompM2 MSR $490 + QRP Mount w/Spacer MSR $115
Weight - CompM2 w/ QRP Mount 335g

Micro T-1 w/LT660 Mount MSR + Life Cycle Cost $749
Life Cycle Cost – 50,000 Hours w/CR2032 Lithium Battery = 2 Batteries X $0.99 = $2
Micro T-1 MSR $650 + LT660 Mount MSR $98
Weight – Micro T-1 w/ LT Mount 177gr

Aimpoint CompC3 QRP Mount MSR + Life Cycle Cost $537
Life Cycle Cost – 50,000 Hours w/ CR 1/3N Lithium Battery = 2 Batteries X $3.49 = $7
CompC3 MSR $415 + QRP Mount w/Spacer MSR $115
Weight – CompM3 w/ QRP Mount 335g

Aimpoint PRO QRP2 Mount MSR + Life Cycle Cost $445.47
Life Cycle Cost – 30,000 Hours w/ CR 1/3N Lithium Battery = 3 Batteries X $3.49 = $10.47
PRO with QRP2 w/Spacer MSR $435
Weight – PRO w/ QRP2 Mount 335g


EOTech 552.A65 MSR + Life Cycle Cost $844
Life Cycle Cost – 1100 Hours AA Lithium Battery = 146 Batteries X $2.50 ea = $365
552.A65 MSR $479 + Life Cycle $365
Weight – 552.A65 326g

EOTech 557.AR223 MSR + Life Cycle Cost $934
Life Cycle Cost – 1100 Hours AA Lithium Battery = 146 Batteries X $2.50 ea = $365
557.AR223 MSR $569 + Life Cycle $365
Weight – 557.AR223 326g

EOTech 512.A65 MSR + Life Cycle Cost $784
Life Cycle Cost – 1100 Hours w/ 2 AA Lithium Batteries = 146 Batteries X $2.50 ea = $365
512.A65 MSR $419 + Life Cycle $365
Weight – 512.A65 326g

EOTech 512.A65 MSR + Life Cycle Cost $739
Life Cycle Cost – 350 Hours w/ 2 AA Alkaline Batteries = 458 Batteries X $.70 ea = $320
512.A65 MSR $419 + Life Cycle $320
Weight – 512.A65 326g

EOTech 511.A65 MSR + Life Cycle Cost $1439
Life Cycle Cost – 200 Hours w/2 N Cell Alkaline Batteries = 800 Batteries X $1.30 ea = $1040
511.A65 MSR $399 + Life Cycle $1040
Weight – 512.A65 326g

----Logistics costs for one 600 man Infantry Battalion equipped with EOTechs using AA Lithium Batteries during a 15 month deployment. 15 months = 458 day X 24 hours = 10,992 hours. 20 AA Lithium batteries per soldier = 12,000 AA Lithium batteries = $30,000.

 

[MattJames]

Jake- Agreed, as yet however despite sights like the T1 and RMR being adapted to pistols that doesn't necessarily suggest they were initially designed for that application. I'm pretty pumped for when companies catch on and build a mini RDS built specifically for pistol recoil.

 

[Bronson]

A word reference battery life:

Typically all Lithium batteries have a 10 year shelf life. The Advance Circuitry Technology that Aimpoint developed and patent protects is way ahead of all competitors. The battery will actually expend more energy setting unused on a shelf than it will running Aimpoint optics at the specified settings or lower.

I took a AA battery out of a dead Eotech optic and placed it into an M68 CCO and it ran for the rest of the 6 months of the deployment.

At the Individual level you would expend an additional $365 in AA batteries if you bought an Eotech because you thought you would save $200 because it is less expensive as an initial purchase compared to an Aimpoint.

At the Organizational level, that could mean more logistics patrols if your Unit isn't squared away just to deliver batteries. At the Company / BN level, you should be able to refit on schedule and obtain batteries or have batteries pushed out to you by regular resupply without adding more patrols just for delivering batteries.

 

[DesertRat]

I have an EOTech for quite some time (probably has about 1,000 rounds under it) and really like it. One of my main reasons for selecting it over the Aimpoint was the reticle. I've been a fan of this style since I first handled an early Steyr AUG. That said I have been hearing far too many stories about EOTech's reliability so I am probably going to pick up an Aimpoint PRO and sell the EOTech soon. Another reason for the change besides reports of reliability is that the Wife's AR will be getting a Micro T-1 and having the same sight picture on both guns seems to make sense.

 

[jmatt511]

I run on my primary and back-up carbines the Eotech 553. Never had a problem with either and change batteries every 6 months (old training scar). I'm partial to the 1moa center dot and the ranging reticle. The lower striation on the 65moa ring is perfect for 7 yard engagements without having to compensate for axis over bore. Then again, I've not tired the Aimpoint. Afraid if I like it too much, there goes some training out the window. As an old friend told me, use what works for you. But learn the other stuff and keep it in your toolbox.

 

[regdudedrtyjob]

I've had 2 Eotechs fail on me at work. Incidentally, both times occurred on the range while conducting quarterly quals. The rifles were pool rifles, and this is a separate but related issue. I don't recall which specific model, but I believe they are the 552's. I prefer to check out rifles with the issued TA45 ACOG's instead, for the bit of magnification they offer and the ability to chamber a round and be ready for a gunfight.

 

[MattJames]

Jmatt511- Hold overs are hold overs. It doesn't change much moving to the single dot.

That being said, I do like the eotech reticle. But a reticle is not the sole reason I would stick with something that has such an inherently flawed track record.

 

[FailureDrill]

When other Cops ask me what I think they should buy, I tell them they should absolutely buy an Aimpoint and that EoTech shouldn't be on their radar.

From the patrol Cop context, optics have to be ready to work for weeks or more as they ride around in a trunk or a rack. I should be able to grab the rifle, charge the rifle and be fighting with the rifle, from my car if need be. The optic needs to hold a zero while bouncing around in a trunk and generally being treated like a piece of issued gear. It needs to have a zero magnification setting that allows for a simple transition from irons and back. And the batteries need to last a LONG time because realistically beat Cops will go months without shooting or even pulling out their rifles. It also needs to be reliable enough to be the sole optic the Cop buys because he likely won't have another as a backup.

Aimpoint is the only optic that does all of that. The need to press buttons on the EoTech while you roll up on a call in order to get it working is another step that has to be trained and also remembered. I've also had enough anecdotal cases of both me and fellow agency instructors having pronounced zero shift and battery/battery compartment failure (while on the hunt for Cop shooting bad guys) that my faith in EoTech just isn't there and I couldn't recommend them. Also, fuck that auto-off function. Even just on the flat range, I've seen it turn itself off in the middle of a tough drill. Mine turned off during a K9 track of a bad guy that was taking a LONG time.

A SWAT dude prepping for a mission that has time to check his optic and lights and double check all his gear before heading out is truly a different animal then the context of a dude pushing a patrol sled. This gets lost sometimes when picking gear.

That's not to say Aimpoint is perfect, we just had a brand new purchase T1 out of the box have an adjustment know spinning free. In the same class, we had a brand new EoTech with a tiny pin retaining clip stuck in the field of view between two of the lenses.

Gear needs to be vetted and checked, but once it's deemed to work, I would only recommend Aimpoint.

 

[MattJames]

The same goes for Soldiers, carrying X number of spare batteries for an optic that must be continuously on for a Multi-Day (or week) operation add's up to weight.

I like the idea of changing a battery once a year tops... and even better it doesn't have the damned 8 hour auto shut off.

 

[John Fischer]

I have never been through one training weekend that a eotech hasn't went down or had a point of aim point of impact shift ....On the opposite end of the spectrum I have never seen a Aimpoint go down .....ever

 

[Bronson]

We're all victims of our frame of reference. I've seen Aimpoints go down (Aimpoint M68 CCO, 2 & 4 MOA). My personal Aimpoint T1 finally malfunctioned (loss of red dot on Setting #7, which I use) after 5 years of steady use and surviving an RPG hit in 2011. That being said, Aimpoint failure rate is much lower than Eotech failure rate.

I'll also differ on "holdovers are holdovers". Adjusting holds with one dot is much more difficult than compared to 2-4 dots or within a circle. With multiple dots if they are not precisely on at prescribed distances, often you can hold between dots as a target reference point.

Further, it's much more easier to confirm various holds at distance and chart them during zeroing with multiple dots or within a larger circle.

 

[MattJames]

Yup, I've seen them go down, but its usually something drastic, like broke something OFF the gun. Its a mechanical device. Given enough force even a steel beam can be broken. Rate of failure is the key metric specifically were weapon systems are concerned. Something better be so incredibly awesome to have a high failure rate and be worth lugging around.

My point on the hold-overs was that it's largely the same across the board. Bullet drop is bullet drop and I think it would be easiest I totally get visual references increasing the accuracy of hold overs (I like horus, sue me).

4 MOA Dot/ 12 inch head/ 20 inch shoulder
300y- 12 inch's at 300y Dot should cover head
400y- 16 inch's Dot Should cover the chest cavity between the arms
500y- 20 inch's, Dot should go from shoulder to shoulder

The Eotech reticle is a bit easier then the dot, simply by virtue that you have a vertical reference to align the rifle on. Cant is one of those things that a lot of people don't take in to account as a contributor to a possible miss. Factor in helmet, terrain, position, armour systems, etc... it all can contribute to adding cant to a weapon which produces a miss very similar to windage. Adding a bubble level to a scope on a long rifle finally made me wonder how many misses I've had that have been cant, not windage induced.

 

[Ashdown]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that in no-light situations the EO Techs have a lot of light that splashes back into your eyes, compared to the Aimpoints. I haven't used them with NVGs, to be fair. For me personally, the EO Tech kind of washes out the target area even at its lower settings. Granted, my eyes aren't what they used to be. YMMV.