9mm Versus .45 acp

Matt Landfair · Apr 1, 2015

In honor of Chuck Haggard

“…there is no appreciable difference in the effectiveness of the 9 mm and the .45 ACP cartridges.”
Vincent J. M. Di Maio, GUNSHOT WOUNDS: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques SECOND EDITION, Page 150.

Trice Burgess, Kenneth Joseph, Will Hill and 57 others like this.
Chuck HaggardThat butt hurts the hell out of some people every time I post it.
March 30 at 2:49pm · Unlike · 20
Ethan GarrityStanding by for aneurysms.
March 30 at 2:50pm · Unlike · 7
Bill LambWill go over 200 comments and idiot will be used by 15th comment.
March 30 at 2:52pm · Like · 2
Daniel CordBut...but...yea, I got nothing.
March 30 at 2:55pm · Unlike · 1
Ethan GarrityThis really should've gone in barracks just so the inevitable twist off could be properly enjoyed...
March 30 at 2:55pm · Unlike · 2
Matt LandfairWe can post it there too
March 30 at 2:56pm · Like
Chuck HaggardI have to shake my head when people try to counter that Di Maio doesn't know what he's talking about, that's always a sure sign that someone is a complete fucktard.
March 30 at 2:56pm · Unlike · 8
Chris TaylorThat 9mm may expand, but my fo'five won't shrink.
March 30 at 3:02pm · Like · 2
Chris TaylorAnd to be clear, before someone twists off, or gets the wrong idea, that was sarcasm.
March 30 at 3:04pm · Unlike · 8
Håkan SpuhrThe problem with handgun ammo is that velocity is to low.....

I Cant see that even lower velocity cures that
March 30 at 3:05pm · Unlike · 7
Frank BrickeyWait! I gotta get my popcorn.
March 30 at 3:05pm · Unlike · 3
Matt LandfairThis is one sided, no need for popcorn....
March 30 at 3:06pm · Like · 2
Matthew ShockeyBut the 9mm doesn't kill your soul like a 45 does.....
March 30 at 3:07pm · Unlike · 7
Giao Nguyen45 … the caliber for old people.
March 30 at 3:08pm · Unlike · 2
Joe Y'allreaddyKnoww Lawler15th comment...YOU WERE WRONG u idiotBill Lamb YOU WERE INCORRECT!!
March 30 at 3:16pm · Edited · Unlike · 4
Chris TaylorShooting a 9mm kills a little piece of my soul every time I pull the switch.
March 30 at 3:08pm · Like · 2
Matt Landfair Roger John Ryan
March 30 at 3:10pm · Like
Aaron Trevino"But this one time they shot this guy with their 9mm's and it was like bees were stinging him and one round in the ass with .45 dropped him"......that's the story I hear everytime I tell the "old timers" in my department that 9mm is my preferred choice.
March 30 at 3:10pm · Unlike · 5
Aaron TrevinoAnd I told them it's cause their shot placement sucked and they get butt hurt.
March 30 at 3:14pm · Like · 5
Chuck Haggard Chris Taylor helps prove the point.............
March 30 at 3:15pm · Like
David BahdeHey! I am old, and I don't carry a 45......
March 30 at 3:17pm · Unlike · 3
Chuck HaggardMe too
March 30 at 3:18pm · Like
Chris Taylor Chuck... uh, thanks, I think?
March 30 at 3:18pm · Like
Chuck HaggardJust stop before your soul is completely gone
March 30 at 3:19pm · Like · 2
Joe Y'allreaddyKnoww Lawleror your hair turns red
March 30 at 3:19pm · Like
Darin Talbot

March 30 at 3:22pm · Unlike · 25
Daniel CordAs a long time 1911 carrier and shooter, my mind was quickly changed during a night course to a Glock 17 for no other purpose than capacity. 32 targets and mags coming outta my pants. Sold on 9mm for that reason alone.
March 30 at 3:23pm · Unlike · 3
Ethan GarrityEnter Darin's sprint to the intellectual high ground
March 30 at 3:26pm · Like · 3
Chuck HaggardThe keys are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset...See More
March 30 at 3:27pm · Unlike · 15
Chuck HaggardBTW, stole ^that^ from Doc Roberts' posting here;https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php...

Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense Ammo
2/6/15 When comparing well designed duty handgun...
PISTOL-FORUM.COM
March 30 at 3:31pm · Like · 3 · Remove Preview
Darin TalbotTissue.is very elastic, and post shooting analysis will show near identical wound structures and mechanisms.

Are you going to rely on a perceived size differential or the ability to put in more holes to effect more rapid incapacitation...See More
March 30 at 3:42pm · Unlike · 6
Brandon HizakSilly bottom feeders. It's not 9mm or 45. Its 357 or 44.
March 30 at 3:46pm · Like · 3
Joe Y'allreaddyKnoww LawlerI have 45 but decided 9 is smarter $ because more rounds...
Less recoil=faster more well placed shots..,...See More
March 30 at 3:47pm · Like · 2
Matt StutzenburgI love the thump of a .45, but given a small frame, I can't easily get my hands around a double stack .45ACP.
I went to 9mm, and I won't go back.
Greater capacity...See More
March 30 at 3:54pm · Like · 4
Tyler WhiteMy only issue or promotion for is that of the .40's slightly better ability to penetrate clothes, doors, windows, seats, and leather over the 9 and .45. Otherwise it's a toss up with you being the variable.
March 30 at 3:56pm · Edited · Like · 1
Chuck HaggardI haven't noted that Tyler, and I know some guys using .40s against cars that have been unsatisfied. None of the service caliber pistols, even the .357s and .44s, are death rays.
March 30 at 3:57pm · Like · 3
Chuck HaggardAlmost no JHP cuts a hole as wide as the bullet, and RN or SWC ammo certainly does not (I have seen up to .45acp FMJRN entrance wounds that had closed up completely, you had to physically move the tissue with a finger to see the wound).

All of the ser...See More
March 30 at 3:58pm · Like · 9
Matt Stutzenburg^^^THIS^^^
March 30 at 4:01pm · Like
Tyler WhiteI did a field test with 40 45 9 223 and the AKrnd. In my unofficial test the 40 penetrated better than the other two. The three pistol rounds even penetrated glass better than the .223/5.65. Anyway it moves a little faster than the other two and you get almost as many rounds as the 9.

Granted still my next Glock will be a 9.
March 30 at 4:11pm · Like · 1
Nate BlissIt's like science and shit!
March 30 at 4:21pm · Edited · Like · 5
Chuck HaggardI've shot up dozens, if not hundreds, of cars over the years, flak vests, body armor, lumber, ballistic gelatin, auto/bus/plate glass, building materials, LBE, loaded AK mags,.... across the board I've noted a significant penetration advantage to those...See More
March 30 at 4:22pm · Like · 4
Steven McCarroll9mm and 45 acp are for girls, a real man shoots 44 magnum.

March 30 at 4:33pm · Like
Chuck HaggardThe .44mag is for people who can't handle the S&W .500
March 30 at 4:37pm · Like · 4
Steven McCarroll500 is nice but it comes in crappy guns.
March 30 at 4:39pm · Like · 1
Matt Landfair Steven reduce troll posts
March 30 at 4:40pm · Like
Steven McCarrollI am the only one in this thread getting yelled at for making a funny?
March 30 at 4:49pm · Like
Sean ManixCaliber debates..smh

March 30 at 4:50pm · Like · 5
Matt LandfairUnfortunately there may be people reading this that don't understand and side with funny because they dont know better
March 30 at 4:51pm · Like · 4
Eric JarvisWhen I stated I was issued a 9mm. Then like a lot of departments we went to a bigger caliber. Now we are back to 9mm. And guess what the guys shoot better and faster. The 9mm Is hard to beat.
March 30 at 4:51pm · Unlike · 3
Sean ManixIll raise your 9mm with 120mm

March 30 at 4:51pm · Like · 3
Chuck HaggardIt's not a debate, it's scientific facts vs derp. Facts need to be repeated, often, to counter the derp and retadery
March 30 at 4:51pm · Unlike · 11
Sean ManixI dont know any pro anywhere that currently uses a .45 outside of a ssgt. Who went marsoc and had a supressed colt for a short time....
March 30 at 4:53pm · Like
Chuck HaggardMe either Sean, me either.
March 30 at 4:55pm · Like · 1
Chuck HaggardNote that MARSOC just approved Glock 19s as one of their pistols
March 30 at 5:05pm · Like · 6
Sean ManixThats because someone listened to end user feedback instead of a desk OIC who thought a heavy ass 1911 is what the real world needed. The berettas and glock 9s are here to stay.
March 30 at 5:07pm · Like · 4
Roddy McCaskill Jr.Shot placement *
March 30 at 5:13pm · Like · 1
Brandon HizakHaving been to multiple cadaver labs and treating various PT's with GSW's shot placement seems the obvious key to success.
March 30 at 5:13pm · Like · 2
Chuck HaggardAnd ^that's^ where the real world info has been coming from.
March 30 at 5:15pm · Edited · Unlike · 6
Roddy McCaskill Jr.The only reason that the 1911 is my favorite is because my go to is a custom built and extremely accurate. But glocks that have had some work are "my fightin pistols"
March 30 at 5:16pm · Like
Chuck HaggardIronically, the 1911 picked by MARSOC didn't even pass the trails they set up for the guns they tested. Someone REALLY wanted 1911s, and was going to get them.
March 30 at 5:17pm · Like · 2
Roddy McCaskill Jr.They never switched to the beretta. Their 1911's were built at quantico until the Corps started developing other special units and they needed an easier solution cause of demand. That's why they "pushed" the kimbers then springfields then colts through
March 30 at 5:21pm · Like
Sean Manix^ Chuck Haggard, yes why I made that OIC comment. We were not even getting enough M9A1s in stock for the MARSOC and recon guys and suddenly this hunk of shit magically made it to fielding because douche brass wanted to never carry a rifle but feel badass. Thank god I got out shortly after that crap.
March 30 at 5:24pm · Like · 2
Matt LandfairNot a 1911 thread
March 30 at 5:26pm · Like · 1
Matt StutzenburgI love shooting 1911's, but I wouldn't want to fight with one.
March 30 at 5:26pm · Like
Sean ManixSorry, I think my point was that poor ballistic understanding and pop psychology has lead to some shitty choices, even at high levels of an active fighting force.
March 30 at 5:27pm · Like · 2
Chuck HaggardI made the note about MARSOC because the 1911 adopted is obviously a .45, which is part of what some think makes it so awesome, and the Glock 19 is obviously a 9mm...................
March 30 at 5:27pm · Like · 1
Roddy McCaskill Jr.When I think .45 1911 is all that comes to mind in the classical sense. Sry
March 30 at 5:29pm · Like
Matt Wicks Chuck Haggard, the Glock 19s have been around for many years before that MARADMIN was released. The message that came out recently authorized the Glocks to be used in annual pistol qualification. It's not like they only just recently decided to buy and start using Glocks...
March 30 at 5:32pm · Like · 1
Michael VaughanIn the words of Col. Cooper, the only thing a pistol (caliber not specific) is good for is the fight your way back to your car to get your RIFLE, which is what you should have taken in the first place.
March 30 at 5:45pm · Unlike · 6
Chuck Haggard Matt Wicks, yup, I get it, just pointing that out (and due to recent press on that subject). G19s are, of course, 9mm. Lots of derps want to claim "Da military is going back to da foe-tee-five!" and other such bullshit, when the truth is that even th...See More
March 30 at 6:37pm · Like · 5
Eric JarvisIt would be interesting to see how many departments have ditched 40 or 45 in the last few years and gone back to the 9mm. I know of at least 4 in my area.
March 30 at 7:22pm · Unlike · 3
Chuck HaggardSeveral in California, Wichita KS, GA State Patrol, the FBI is of course going that route, there is quite a list actually.
March 30 at 7:48pm · Like · 2
Roddy McCaskill Jr.Shoot you can buy a .40 cal m&p or glock as a police trade in for nothing now
March 30 at 7:55pm · Like · 1
Chuck Haggardand for good reasons
March 30 at 7:57pm · Like · 5
Matt Landfair Paul
March 30 at 8:24pm · Like
Darin TalbotSemi Handgun / cartridge "science" IMO is either pre or post April 11, 1986
March 30 at 9:48pm · Edited · Like · 2
Josh BosWhat about the difference when not just looking at soft tissue, but going more for "breaking" the threat such as the pelvic girdle, shots that go into the femur, etc? We are training guys to shoot to not just bleed a target out, but to literally bre...See More
21 hrs · Like · 2
Travis AdamsI like a good .45 ACP
21 hrs · Like
Darin TalbotI like Chicken too, but it does not mean that its the best option
21 hrs · Like · 3
Chris TaylorI like lamp.
20 hrs · Unlike · 1
Josh Bos Matt Landfair, Chuck Haggard a few up ^^^^^^
20 hrs · Like
Travis AdamsA lot of the range masters in Utah Department of Corrections like 9mm. I have always used a 40. I am going to get a .45 ACP, because my dad always favored them. There is nothing wrong with a 9mm. Just wanted to try something different.
20 hrs · Like · 1
Chuck HaggardWith good bullets the 9mm works as well as any other service caliber pistol round. Ref "breaking pelvis", read this; Fackler ML: "Shots to the Pelvic Area". Wound Ballistics Review. 4(1):13; 1999.

“I welcome the chance to refute the belief that the p...See More
18 hrs · Unlike · 5
Chuck HaggardSeriously, we've shot the hell out of bad guys locally, no issues with cars, windshields, bone, big guys, big mean pit bulls, etc. 9mm works.
18 hrs · Edited · Unlike · 6
Steven McCarrollOut of curiosity, what are the arguments against 45 acp. Added expense, reduced capacity?
17 hrs · Like
Sean Shepherddoes it really matter if shot placement is correct?
17 hrs · Like · 2
Tyler WhiteThat ^
17 hrs · Like
Matt LandfairIt matters for a cns shot
17 hrs · Like
Sean Shepherd.45 kills more nerves ?
17 hrs · Like
Matt LandfairIf the wounds are indistinguishable...
17 hrs · Like
Sean ShepherdI know the .45 vs. 9mm kills mine
17 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
Sean ManixThis seemed relevant to the fact that broscience still exists, even here?

17 hrs · Unlike · 5
Josh Bos Chuck, I understand what your cut and paste says. It still primarily deals with soft tissue. I will say that pelvic girdle shots have ended plenty of fights that I have personal knowledge of. Two with rifles and one with a handgun. I have used both MP5...See More
10 hrs · Like · 1
Chuck HaggardI agree that the Miami fight would have ended much quicker if the exact same shots had been made with today's ammo. IN the shootings we have had locally, using 124gr +P Gold Dot and some 124gr +P Ranger-T, we've seen zero issue with breaking large bon...See More
5 hrs · Like · 4
Chuck HaggardBTW, in conversation Jim Cirillo told me that every single bad guy they shot in the ass fell over. They shot for the ass in many of their fights due to being issued 158gr RNL, and that bullet being famous for shooting though people. In those circumst...See More
4 hrs · Like · 3
Josh BosThe shot placement/LE miss percentage wasn't in response to your answer Chuck. I see the shot placement argument all of the time, but it does depend on the round, positioning, etc even with good shot placement. I have a good friend and fellow trainer ...See More
3 hrs · Like · 1
Chuck HaggardI was just throwing that out there for food for thought. The "stats" that people use for police shooting hit rates are most often made up bullshit, or extrapolated from regional or single department studies like the NYPD SOP9 report. There is no, zer...See More
3 hrs · Like · 3
Jerry OliverThis the BEST thread I have read in a long time.
2 hrs · Unlike · 1
Chuck HaggardI forgot to add that in many cases in officer involved shootings the bad guy gets to shoot first, and the officer is starting from an initiative deficit. Getting shot and having to return fire in the dark kinda fucks with your hit rate. Just sayin. Read "Violent Encounters" for some more details on such examples.
2 hrs · Like
Matt LandfairJared Reston why are you not in this group?
2 hrs · Like
Josh BosIdeas for research projects can germinate from the least likely moments, as when a student asked Firearms Trainer Tom Aveni if he'd ever visited the ACLU's website. He hadn't ("Why would I even want to go there?"), but out of curiosity he did.

There i...See More
24 mins · Like
Josh BosThis is part of the Force Science Institute information.
http://www.policeone.com/.../117909-Study-reveals.../...See More

Study reveals important truths hidden in the details of officer-involved shootings
Ideas for research projects can germinate from the...
POLICEONE.COM
21 mins · Like · Remove Preview
Ethan GarrityThis shit needs to hit the forum for posterity.
9 mins · Unlike · 3
Chris TaylorStars and stones yes. This may be one of the best threads I've seen. Ever.

Chuck, Josh... most excellent, gentlemen. Thanks.

9mm Versus .45 acp

Matt Landfair

Matt Six Actual