75 or 64 GD for LE duty use? | Primary & Secondary

75 or 64 GD for LE duty use?

Discussion in 'Ammunition' started by Arete, May 11, 2017.

  1. Arete

    Arete Member

    Our agency (a rural and not so rural S.O.) is currently using Speer 55 GD .223. It was selected last go round due to our then having a mix of 1/7, 1/9, 1/12 (1033 program) barreled rifles in use.

    The 1033 program guns are no longer in use.

    We currently have a mix of:
    - Colt 6933's (these are about half of our current rifles, this number continues to grow as we continue to purchase more over time; I envision us using only 11.5" SBRs 5 yrs from now.

    -Colt, S&W, BCM, etc. 14.5" and 16" mostly 1/7 barrels, but also some 1/9 barrels.

    I've reviewed info from FBI and other sources, and probably would have picked 64 GD (it seems to be the "just right" cartridge), but am curious about the 75 GD (there isn't much gel test data avail for it apart from Speer's website, which is from a test barrel), particularly:

    -terminal performance of the 75 GD out of 11.5" barrels using FBI method gel tests. What about rotational velocity?
    -stabilization/accuracy of the 75 GD out of the 1/9 barrels
    -any other differences, good or bad, that the 75 has from the 64, or the 55 GD, relative to our intended application

    Appreciate your help on this so we can make an informed decision.
     
    CHAOS16 likes this.
  2. Arete

    Arete Member

    A few more things -

    While I refer to the 64 GD, I'm also referring to the 62 GD, since Doc and others have stated they perform identically or nearly so.

    At present, Speer shows the 64 GD on the LE section of their website, not the 62 GD.

    All our SBRs now and going forward are 5.56 1/7 twist barrels.

    Having said that, we do have a 10.3 1/7 SBR in use.

    I realize some of the cons of the 10.3/10.5 vs 11.5 , but what are optimal CONUS LE loads for the 10.3/10.5?
     
  3. Vegasshooter

    Vegasshooter Newbie

    I have spent a ton of time with all the .223 Speer GD loading. Our current issue for patrol rifles is 55 grain Speer GD. We just had a shooting with it a month ago. Round through the back window glass of a full size pick up, hit under the suspect's left ear. Traveled out his mouth. Took his chickletts with it. Suspect was dead right there. The round was textbook through glass and did its job.
    SWAT Sniper shooting a few years back used the Speer 62/64 GD. Two round went through the front windshield of a vehicle, hit suspect in the throat, and in the head. Opened up the head like a valley. Suspect DRT as well. In both instances the suspects had been actively shooting at Police. In both instances, through auto glass the bullets performed textbook.

    We are currently issuing/using the Speer 75 gr GD in our SPR (Special Purpose Rifles). These are AR's with LPV attached. Think DMR rifles. I have taught 3 classes, about 12 students a class, so about 36-40 students. We shoot high angle, low angle, out to 500yds, and shoot movers. The class is designed to show guys what a LPV is capable of. MOST of the guns are 1-7 or 1-8 guns, however, we've had a few 1-9 guns come through. I have personally seen the 75gr stabilize and do just fine in the 1-9 barrels. Many folks will tell you the slower twist won't stabilize the heavies. That isn't what I have seen in VERY LIMITED testing. Not saying every gun will, just the ones I've seen have.

    I am a FIRM believer in the Speer GD round. Having seen the crime scene photos, and personally knowing and talking to all three of the shooters involved in the above scenarios. I believe you would be absolutely fine using any of the 3 loads. They FLAT work. They are as barrier blind as anything currently manufactured. They are as accurate as the rifle/shooter is capable of. Buy a box of each and see what your gun likes. I 100% think you'll be as well armed as the .223 is capable of being.

    These are just my thoughts. I am a full time trainer/instructor with a very big S/O. We have approximately 1300 rifles on the street. Because of where I work, I see every shooting out dept is invelved in, and have the chance to debrief every shooter. These are JUST my opinions.
     
  4. Arete

    Arete Member

    Excellent feedback. THANKS
     
  5. back spin

    back spin Amateur

    **Ok, disregard my initial post as it has a bunch of bad info (that’s what I get for trying to give info purely off of memory). My apologies for any confusion.**

    Below is the correct data from the gel shoot:

    Temp: 50’s

    Colt 11.5” gun

    62gr Gold Dot .223 (24445SP)

    Ave. MV: 2354

    Bare Gel @ 25 yards: Pen: 16.00” / Ave. Expansion: 0.475” / Retained weight: 61.2 grains

    Auto Glass @ 25 yards: Pen: 11.75” / Ave Expansion: 0.467” / Retained weight: 40.8 grains

    62 grain has replaced the 64 grain version.


    75gr Gold Dot .223 (24475)

    Ave. MV: 2340

    Bare Gel @ 25 yards: Pen: 17.75” / Ave. Expansion: 0.640 / Retained weight: 66 grains

    Auto Glass @ 25 yards: Pen: 11.75 / Ave. Expansion: 0.358 / Retained weight: 42 grains

    Per the sales rep: 75 grain Gold Dot will expand reliably at 1950 fps out of a 7” barreled rifle
     
  6. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater Regular Member

    The 64 grain GDHP is being discontinued and replaced with 62 grain. Not sure if it's going on yet, or about to happen.

    My agency currently issues 64 grain GDHP for patrol rifles. SWAT has gone to 11.5" piston rifles, and we recently did FBI protocol gel tests on a variety of loads through the new SBRs, including the 64 and 75 grain GDHP rounds. The end result was selection of 75 grain GDHP. It had a little better performance than what we were getting out of the current 64 grain.

    The remainder of the agency will remain on the 64/62 grain for 14.5" or 16" rifles.

    We were previously using 64 grain Federal bonded JSP. It was awesome through glass, but through lightweight clothes we had several shootings that exhibited very poor performance and energy transfer. We had one bad guy eat 19 rounds of it before he went down.
     
  7. DocGKR

    DocGKR Dr.Ballistics Moderator

    Both the 62/64 gr and 75 gr GD will work for LE duty. If all your guns are 1/7 then the 75 gr is pretty nice...
     
    22Mike, Matty.FiveSix, tact and 2 others like this.

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