45° Offset and Co-witness Question

[Deputy_G.W.]

1. Thoughts/experience with 45° offset irons to avoid issues in case of optic failure? (Looking at Larue Tactical offset sights)

2. With 45° offset irons, I'd like to have a backup sight (RMR) but I'm unaware of a height needed for lower 1/3 co-witness or full co-witness. Thoughts/info?

My thoughts/limitations:
The 45° back up sighting system seems to be the most effective option for a number of reasons.
A. If the optic fails, the movement to a new sighting system seems better than moving the head up for a top-mounted RMR, giving superior cheek weld.
B. If (God forbid) the Aimpoint PRO glass breaks, a co-witnessed iron sight is moot.
C. Due to a personal limitation of off-hand shooting (rightie shooting lefty), the natural cant for off hand shooting is naturally 25ish degrees, requiring only slight training to go to 45°.

I understand the RMR is limited for distance, but it's a backup SHTF sort of addition (think target specific directed fire until the brain catches up in a firefight where it's required).

I'm open to all ideas, but keep in mind this is based on duty/home defense. I intend on competing with it, but more to be humbled by the 12 year old Wunderkind types, not to focus on competition itself.

Thank you!

 

[Deputy_G.W.]

To clarify, Troy BUIS, Larue is the only place I could find them.

 

[pointblank4445]

Speaking for the likeliest of scenarios, it's probably more likely that you will have a dead battery or a too-dim setting on your Aimpoint than a to have a catastrophic optic breakage that would also likely affect you or other parts of the gun. Irons in combo with your primary (Aimpoint PRO) are give you more "pre-failure" utility.

I'm not a fan of offset irons at all. First, for all the reasons red dots are better than irons in practice compounded with either the fore/aft positioning limitations and its affect on the sometimes too small rear aperture (lookin' at you, KAC) for their intent. If they're folding, they'll stay out of your way but must be deployed (defeating most point) or they're fixed...and sometimes cumbersome.

And finally, I don't think you give the RMR enough credit. While there's some image distortion on the curved lens, it will meet your "emergency" needs as well or better than irons.

 

[Deputy_G.W.]

Speaking for the likeliest of scenarios, it's probably more likely that you will have a dead battery or a too-dim setting on your Aimpoint than a to have a catastrophic optic breakage that would also likely affect you or other parts of the gun. Irons in combo with your primary (Aimpoint PRO) are give you more "pre-failure" utility.

I'm not a fan of offset irons at all. First, for all the reasons red dots are better than irons in practice compounded with either the fore/aft positioning limitations and its affect on the sometimes too small rear aperture (lookin' at you, KAC) for their intent. If they're folding, they'll stay out of your way but must be deployed (defeating most point) or they're fixed...and sometimes cumbersome.

And finally, I don't think you give the RMR enough credit. While there's some image distortion on the curved lens, it will meet your "emergency" needs as well or better than irons.

The RMR would be on the 45° cant for clarification. It would be Aimpoint PRO as primary with RMR as a backup on the cant with BUIS co-witnessed with the RMR on the cant.

 

[pointblank4445]

It would be Aimpoint PRO as primary with RMR as a backup on the cant with BUIS co-witnessed with the RMR on the cant.

Again, given that your original post references primarily "back-up"/failure contingency as the purpose for the offset sights, its odd that you would forego the irons on the "primary" optic/plane and double-down on the offsets.
If you were talking about using an offset with a different zero for practical reasons, that would be another thing but I've not seen that context mentioned.
I keep reading this like someone is saying: "I'm worried that when my $300k house burns down I won't have a place to live so I'm going to build a $500k house in an inconvenient area just in case."

...and that's all I'm gonna say other than I kinda miss the "gate-keeping".

 

[Matt Landfair]

The only time I like offsets is when it is in conjunction with a magnified primary optic. 1x offsets to a 1x primary optic doesn't compute for me. If the primary optic is 1x, looking through it to use irons is a nonissue. Adding offsets for no actual reason or benefit is a bit counter intuitive. I do not want to unnecessarily complicate my weapons.

I have several sets of offset irons that have actively been replaced by offset rds.

 

[Deputy_G.W.]

Again, given that your original post references primarily "back-up"/failure contingency as the purpose for the offset sights, its odd that you would forego the irons on the "primary" optic/plane and double-down on the offsets.
If you were talking about using an offset with a different zero for practical reasons, that would be another thing but I've not seen that context mentioned.
I keep reading this like someone is saying: "I'm worried that when my $300k house burns down I won't have a place to live so I'm going to build a $500k house in an inconvenient area just in case."

...and that's all I'm gonna say other than I kinda miss the "gate-keeping".

The main reason I planned on the offset irons is in case of glass breakage on the Aimpoint. I know I'm going a little overboard ($850 in RDS optics on one gun ) to backup a backup for a robust optic. My intent was flip up sights.

Part of the thought for the BUIS and RMR on the angle is also my limitation regarding my left eye. When I transition to my left shoulder, I still need to use my right eye, resulting in a natural cant. If I have sights offset (which I may do per Matt's advice above without the BUIS), this may improve offhand effective rounds on target.

Again, all this in theory versus in practice is very different and I understand that. I did laugh at your comment about the house, sometimes you have to say the question out loud to know how ridiculous it sounds. I can see where you're coming from.

Lastly, and I'll respond to Matt about this too, I was considering a 3x magnifier for the Aimpoint, so that throws another variable. Realistically, I do see this rifle in my mind's eye with all this stuff on it and I don't like it. I'm a function over form guy, but I like to know I can put effective fire where it needs to be when it needs to be there. The emphasis is sub-200 yards, with anything beyond that being pretty unrealistic (and that's even a stretch distance wise).

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Deputy_G.W.]

The only time I like offsets is when it is in conjunction with a magnified primary optic. 1x offsets to a 1x primary optic doesn't compute for me. If the primary optic is 1x, looking through it to use irons is a nonissue. Adding offsets for no actual reason or benefit is a bit counter intuitive. I do not want to unnecessarily complicate my weapons.

I have several sets of offset irons that have actively been replaced by offset rds.

Matt,

I do understand that for sure and I appreciate the feedback. It would seem maybe BUIS for the main optic and an offset RMR may be the order of the day, as this is the best of both worlds. If you check my other reply you'll see my other variables, but the more I look at the function of this platform, a magnifier seems less likely. I'll have to get over my experience with main optics that get shot and prohibit use of co-witnessed BUIS, haha...the law of averages and all that. I just am well acquainted with Murphey as well, haha.

Again, thank you for taking the time to opine.

 

[pointblank4445]

Well, @Deputy_G.W. , maybe there are other ways to achieve the desired solution...and the Aimpoint PRO isn't part of it.
Perhaps a Micro is the ticket rather than going with 2x RDS's. Either the KAC riser or something like the uber-tall Unity Tactical that sits over the iron sight line is the ticket.
Both the KAC and the unity would allow you use of a magnifier as well and also put the red dot in a position for you to use your Right eye while shooting left-side. And best yet, everything is still in the 12 o'clock plane and fully usable.

Yeah, it's a pain in the ass to shuffle stuff around and get new kit, but sometimes it's worth the hassle...and this may be one of those times.

I'll tell ya, I've got a healthy mix of magnified optics, red dots, micro red dots (offset), and irons, and these are my rules for setting up a gun:
- Minimum of 2x aiming solutions (in case the primary breaks or is ineffective)
- 1x non-electric/non-battery dependent aiming solution
- No special tools or removal required to use secondary aiming solution (i.e. no QD/removing mount to access flip-up irons for example).
- Vis laser does not count as a back-up aiming solution

 

[Deputy_G.W.]

Well, @Deputy_G.W. , maybe there are other ways to achieve the desired solution...and the Aimpoint PRO isn't part of it.
Perhaps a Micro is the ticket rather than going with 2x RDS's. Either the KAC riser or something like the uber-tall Unity Tactical that sits over the iron sight line is the ticket.
Both the KAC and the unity would allow you use of a magnifier as well and also put the red dot in a position for you to use your Right eye while shooting left-side. And best yet, everything is still in the 12 o'clock plane and fully usable.

Yeah, it's a pain in the ass to shuffle stuff around and get new kit, but sometimes it's worth the hassle...and this may be one of those times.

I'll tell ya, I've got a healthy mix of magnified optics, red dots, micro red dots (offset), and irons, and these are my rules for setting up a gun:
- Minimum of 2x aiming solutions (in case the primary breaks or is ineffective)
- 1x non-electric/non-battery dependent aiming solution
- No special tools or removal required to use secondary aiming solution (i.e. no QD/removing mount to access flip-up irons for example).
- Vis laser does not count as a back-up aiming solution

Noob move...I'd set my sights (no pun intended) on the PRO...but the Micro totally escaped me. I'm very familiar with multiple Trijicon optics, but not so much Aimpoint. I'll definitely take those into account.

Thank you for all the time responding. Texting, even long form forums, is a pain sometimes with technical stuff. This has been extremely helpful.

 

[PM07]

Does your agency allow use of LPVO's? If so, lots of options out there to make your rifle a better more efficient tool for LE work. If not, we can help provide info to get it approved if your agency is at least open to it.

 

[Deputy_G.W.]

Does your agency allow use of LPVO's? If so, lots of options out there to make your rifle a better more efficient tool for LE work. If not, we can help provide info to get it approved if your agency is at least open to it.

I'm working on personally owned rifles for patrol at this time. I'm building this with the intention of using it at home for now and duty once those hoops are jumped through.

Definitely a newbie to the LPVO world, my expertise (a relative term here) is only in red dots and prism. I will be reaching out to you and others here when the personally owned rifles are even on the radar for my agency. My issue (as addressed in other posts) is placing an LPVO on a rifle that is typically used for engagements within 100 yards, and realistically typically a fraction of that. It is likely more of a retraining issue for myself, but I've retrained from irons to prism to holographic to red dot and back, so I'm not worried, just being cautious with new tech (new to me) at this time.

My agency is very liberal with their policies and I'm attempting to navigate why personally owned rifles aren't allowed when personally owned pistols are.

That's a long way to say, I'm interested in alternatives and appreciate your time and input

 

[Chriscanbreach]

It’s not yardage it’s information. Hit some of the LPVO SME’s here up for the how and if you have a .gov I’ll explain the why.

@PM07 raises a side topic from the OP’s original question but a valid fork in the road.

 

[PM07]

The curve for going from a Aimpoint to a quality LVPO dot wise was minimal as in almost flat for me. A Good quality LVPO will help with that. In simplest terms of information shooting wise, if you are at 75 Yards with a bad guy behind cover and all you have in a shot at his knee, a LVPO gives you a higher hit probability vs. a red dot. Do a search for LVPO I think we have a good thread here on the forum about it.

Good luck on getting POWs approved, I did that for several of my former agencies.