.300 Blackout

#21
As I stated above, depending on the load and barrel setup you may see greater intermediate barrier penetration at closer distances closer to 762x39 than 556.

The greatest benefit to running a blackout is being able to run a sub 10" barrel and still getting desirable penetration capability upto 50-75m depending on load.
I should’ve expounded a little more. For example, vs. x39 or 5.56, is there greater potential for permanent wound cavity?
 
#22
I should’ve expounded a little more. For example, vs. x39 or 5.56, is there greater potential for permanent wound cavity?
I would say that it depends on your application/mission first, then you can determine which caliber is best suited for it.

For me, where I live/work, its all urban and I need something which will go through barriers (cars/doors/etc) without issue, 300 blackout works best in this mission. For others who need to be able to reach out to 200m may need 556 for consistency, and that would be the better choice for terminal ballistics at that distance.
 
#23
Something else I forgot to mention in terms of .300 blk, if you reload since it used .308 bullets its not to hard to reload for and it becomes viable then and

@voodoo_man in terms of modern defensive ammo, does .300 blackout really give you an advantage in wounding effects versus 5.56 or 7.62x39mm? Im under the assumption that in terminal performance is basically indistinguishable to 7.62Soviet with an expanding bullet(similar weight and energy) but Im curious how that compares to modern 5.56 as well as fragmenting 55 grain ball inside 100 yards
 
#24
Something else I forgot to mention in terms of .300 blk, if you reload since it used .308 bullets its not to hard to reload for and it becomes viable then and

@voodoo_man in terms of modern defensive ammo, does .300 blackout really give you an advantage in wounding effects versus 5.56 or 7.62x39mm? Im under the assumption that in terminal performance is basically indistinguishable to 7.62Soviet with an expanding bullet(similar weight and energy) but Im curious how that compares to modern 5.56 as well as fragmenting 55 grain ball inside 100 yards
The decision for me was the issue if barrel size, penetration and possible court considerations.

A sub 10" 556 gun, more often than not, needs to be tuned to run properly and to get good ballistics. For my particular application I needed something under the 8" barrel length range for an engagement distance of sub 50m specifically dealing with barrier penetration.

I'd have taken an AK pistol for the job except that there is an obvious stigma for AKs in the US and not so much for AR platforms.

On top of that the ballistics of the chosen round - Barnes tac-tx is very impressive and specifically capable of doing exactly what I want in the package I want it in.
 
#25
The decision for me was the issue if barrel size, penetration and possible court considerations.

A sub 10" 556 gun, more often than not, needs to be tuned to run properly and to get good ballistics. For my particular application I needed something under the 8" barrel length range for an engagement distance of sub 50m specifically dealing with barrier penetration.

I'd have taken an AK pistol for the job except that there is an obvious stigma for AKs in the US and not so much for AR platforms.

On top of that the ballistics of the chosen round - Barnes tac-tx is very impressive and specifically capable of doing exactly what I want in the package I want it in.
You live in a castle doctrine/stand your ground state?

If your in a place where if you defend yourself you don't get castle doctrine protection and have to automatically go in front of a judge and the prosecutor and have them decide to prosecute you or not, just get a 12 gauge. I really don't think it will matter much in court if you shoot a home invader multiple times with a AK pistol or AR SBR because it will be seen as a "evil assault weapon". Also with a gauge you can realistically get a 1 shot stop which will help you in the fact finding of your case.

Also look into getting self defense insurance and talk to a lawyer who has actually defended people in self defense cases in your state to get an idea of what the laws are in your state, how judges interpret the law in your area, and any cases of self defense that would set precedent for anything you would go through
 
#26
You live in a castle doctrine/stand your ground state?

If your in a place where if you defend yourself you don't get castle doctrine protection and have to automatically go in front of a judge and the prosecutor and have them decide to prosecute you or not, just get a 12 gauge. I really don't think it will matter much in court if you shoot a home invader multiple times with a AK pistol or AR SBR because it will be seen as a "evil assault weapon". Also with a gauge you can realistically get a 1 shot stop which will help you in the fact finding of your case.

Also look into getting self defense insurance and talk to a lawyer who has actually defended people in self defense cases in your state to get an idea of what the laws are in your state, how judges interpret the law in your area, and any cases of self defense that would set precedent for anything you would go through
Castle doctrine and active LEO. HD is obviously something important, but given the political climate of where I am most time of the day, even off duty, the fact is a '92 LA riot type situation can easily erupt at any given moment.

12g, while a viable option is not something I can carry around constantly.
 
#27
Castle doctrine and active LEO. HD is obviously something important, but given the political climate of where I am most time of the day, even off duty, the fact is a '92 LA riot type situation can easily erupt at any given moment.

12g, while a viable option is not something I can carry around constantly.
Interesting, so you EDC a shorty SBR AR or use it as a trunk gun then?
 

Pat Tarrant

Custom testicles
Moderator
#29
Regarding terminal ballistics, be sure to not compare apples to oranges. Performance is going to be determined as much by the individual bullet design and velocity out of your individual barrel as it is by caliber. Blackout does have some reported overpenetration issues, with the only DocGKR approved round of blackout that I'm aware of being the 110gr TSX, available in the Barnes Vor-TX line as loaded ammo.

Bottom line is basically that the right Blackout round will do work, and the right 5.56 round will do work, as long as you do what's needed. The make or break for me between 5.56 and Blackout is barrel length. If i'm going shorter than 10.5 (and 10.5 is ragged edge for 5.56), I'll probably go with Blackout. That's assuming that I find a mission need to have a barrel under 10.5." Due to the better ammunition availability, cost, and performance of modern 5.56, I've found little practical use for Blackout in my life, after having two Blackout uppers that I bought and sold. Your needs may vary.
 
#30
Regarding terminal ballistics, be sure to not compare apples to oranges. Performance is going to be determined as much by the individual bullet design and velocity out of your individual barrel as it is by caliber. Blackout does have some reported overpenetration issues, with the only DocGKR approved round of blackout that I'm aware of being the 110gr TSX, available in the Barnes Vor-TX line as loaded ammo.

Bottom line is basically that the right Blackout round will do work, and the right 5.56 round will do work, as long as you do what's needed. The make or break for me between 5.56 and Blackout is barrel length. If i'm going shorter than 10.5 (and 10.5 is ragged edge for 5.56), I'll probably go with Blackout. That's assuming that I find a mission need to have a barrel under 10.5." Due to the better ammunition availability, cost, and performance of modern 5.56, I've found little practical use for Blackout in my life, after having two Blackout uppers that I bought and sold. Your needs may vary.
So here is an interesting question, if you want a short OAL, how would a pinned 14.5 Bullpup rifle compare to a 10-12 inch SBR/Pistol AR with the buffer tube?
 
#32
Regarding terminal ballistics, be sure to not compare apples to oranges. Performance is going to be determined as much by the individual bullet design and velocity out of your individual barrel as it is by caliber. Blackout does have some reported overpenetration issues, with the only DocGKR approved round of blackout that I'm aware of being the 110gr TSX, available in the Barnes Vor-TX line as loaded ammo.
Pat, to avoid confusion, I think it's important to recognize which Barnes bullet you're talking about. The good one for the Blackout is the "Black Tip" TTSX, not the TSX or the blue tip TTSX. Those are three different bullets, all 110gr Barnes, but the TSX and blue tip TTSX are intended for 308 and larger capacity cartridges at higher velocity, they don't work well in the Blackout. It's become commonplace to refer to that Blackout bullet as the "Black Tip" rather than TSX or TTSX to avoid confusion with the others.
 
#33
Pat, to avoid confusion, I think it's important to recognize which Barnes bullet you're talking about. The good one for the Blackout is the "Black Tip" TTSX, not the TSX or the blue tip TTSX. Those are three different bullets, all 110gr Barnes, but the TSX and blue tip TTSX are intended for 308 and larger capacity cartridges at higher velocity, they don't work well in the Blackout. It's become commonplace to refer to that Blackout bullet as the "Black Tip" rather than TSX or TTSX to avoid confusion with the others.
There are 110gr and 120gr VOR-TX /TAC-TX BT, Barnes bullets in circulation. Both are the rounds I was referring to for superior ballistics.
 

Pat Tarrant

Custom testicles
Moderator
#34
The loaded 110gr Barnes
So here is an interesting question, if you want a short OAL, how would a pinned 14.5 Bullpup rifle compare to a 10-12 inch SBR/Pistol AR with the buffer tube?
The comparison between SBRs and bullpups is already pretty well covered. If your round is velocity dependent, then the bullpup makes more sense, provided acceptable accuracy from the platform. Many 5.56 loads currently available are not as dependent on velocity to perform well.
 

Pat Tarrant

Custom testicles
Moderator
#35
Pat, to avoid confusion, I think it's important to recognize which Barnes bullet you're talking about. The good one for the Blackout is the "Black Tip" TTSX, not the TSX or the blue tip TTSX. Those are three different bullets, all 110gr Barnes, but the TSX and blue tip TTSX are intended for 308 and larger capacity cartridges at higher velocity, they don't work well in the Blackout. It's become commonplace to refer to that Blackout bullet as the "Black Tip" rather than TSX or TTSX to avoid confusion with the others.
The loaded round I referred to has the black tip, the 110gr Barnes Vor-TX loading. My understanding is that the 120gr variant should be good as well, but I don't know any testing data for it. I wasn't talking about individual bullets for handloading. If there was any other confusion from what I wrote, thank you for clarifying for others.
 
#36
The loaded round I referred to has the black tip, the 110gr Barnes Vor-TX loading. My understanding is that the 120gr variant should be good as well, but I don't know any testing data for it. I wasn't talking about individual bullets for handloading. If there was any other confusion from what I wrote, thank you for clarifying for others.
Yup, I knew which one you meant, but thought it best to clarify for others since you also said the TSX, which is a different bullet.
 

ammomfg

Newbie
Network Support I
#37
Ooooh .300 BLK

I have a very love/hate relationship with this cartridge let me detail:

Loves:
1) It is a triumph of open standards - AAC/Rem SAAMI'ed this cartridge as soon as they could, and wiped out the .300 Whisper (death to proprietary cartridges!
2) It's .30 cal, which means it has a very wide selection of bullets - But so does my .308
3) It's of a bore diameter that's legal to hunt and allows you to do so with a short carbine
4) Suppressed - this is becoming less an issue as suppressors get better

Hates:
1) Fanboys
2) Ballistics
3) Cost

In all, outside the hunting, or some military use case, I don't think the .300BLK is a wise investment, it's ballistics are not great, and in most cases are about the same as a heavy .357 bullet. Stability becomes a major issue with the subsonic rounds and very aggressive twists are used to overcome this. As such, I don't think I've ever been able to get what I would consider as a rifle shooter an acceptable group at 100 yards with subsonic .300BLK.

I won't tell you not to buy .300BLK, if you like it, and you have a niche use case for it, go ahead. However from a generalist perspective, the 5.56 can and does beat the .300, and other cartridges like 6.5 grendel, 6.8 SPC, or 6.5x45 match or exceed the ballistics, of the 5.56 and leave .300 in the dust. One person brought up magpul's lack of magazine support for these cartridges, to me this is not an issue, I have pmags, I use pmags, but I prefer plain-jane USGI mags (with the magpul follower), ASC makes aluminum/SS mags for 6.5 and 6.8, and the 6.5x45 works with USGI mags.

I built a .300BLK at the height of it's coolness, I shot 3 boxes of ammo through it, and put the upper back in the safe. I've shot it a few times as a test gun, that's it. It's just not that cool.

Now, to answer the question: "Is it here to stay?" My answer is an unequivocal yes, it's not going anywhere. Being an open standard a lot of people make parts for the gun, the cartridges can be made from cut-down .223 brass. Like the .30 cal bullet, it's not going anywhere. It may become more niche, but from what I've seen, the days of the "OMG SUPPRESSED SUBSONIC CARTRIDGE" are fading. If you look at what the new hotness is in AR platforms: .224 valkyrie trying to push a heavy 5.56 bullet to varmint velocities. Again, I don't think this is going to be the forever hotness, and I don't think .224 valkyrie is going to stick around, there are already other cartridges that do it's job better.

In all, I think the next evolution is going to be more mid caliber offerings in the AR platform (i.e. something bullet-diameter wise between .224 and .308) some stuff has been done with 6 and 6.5, one company (sharps) launched it's .25 caliber offering a few years ago. However it suffers from a very serious and critical flaw: bullet selection.

One of the major issues that exists with the .223 wildcat cartridge development is very few developers are willing to change the geometry of the case much, In order to get those longer, heavier bullets into that cartridge, they need to push the mouth back 1-2mm, and maybe the shoulder as well. Grendel started from a different place, and I very much commend Bill Alexander for thinking outside the box on it, but it will probably never ever see the same wide application as 5.56 even though it is a dramatically better cartridge, because no one wants to go out and and not only buy a new gun, but a pile of new mags to go with it. This is why the .300BLK is so popular, it's just a barrel swap, and has lead to a whole new market for quick-change barrel conversions for the AR.

Anyways, I'm going to quit before I get too ranty. If you like .300BLK and want to use it because you have a safe full of 5.56 rifles and are feeling a little bored, rock on. If you're new to shooting and want to get your first black rifle, unless you have a lot of friends who all shoot .300BLK, make sure it's a 5.56.

Last note: If you do have a .300BLK and a 5.56 be exceptionally sure you NEVER EVER EVER mix up the ammo. I have seen two people jack .300BLK into 5.56 guns, which resulted in a complete explosive disassembly of the firearm, I actually have the barrel from one of the guns I've been meaning to do a cut-away of.
 
#38
With its popularity, I don't see how this hasn't been covered.

My understanding is it is optimal suppressed and short.

I had a 9” BCM 300BLK Upper that I eventually ditched bc it was cheaper to just maintain a 12.5” 5.56 Rifle. I have no LE experience but based on the ranges that most LE have engagements at combined with talking to a buddy who is part time ATL SWAT it seems to me that a 9-10.5” 300BLK rifle with a suppressor would be the perfect cop duty rifle.
 

ammomfg

Newbie
Network Support I
#40
Short question: Is there a viable subsonic HD round that is readily available/factory built in .300?

If not, why?
Every .30 cal bullet ever designed has been designed to work best at high velocity, why? because it's a rifle caliber, rifles have fast bullets.

.300BLK just tried to follow-along and borrow the same caliber. Realistically, the whole predicate of .300BLK is that it shoots heavy bullets subsonically, and fits in an AR-15. If someone had invested the effort in making a .357-Max fit in the AR-15, you would still be using pistol bullets, out of an AR.

There are bullets out there that are designed specific for the BLK, in all honesty, I can't think of a single reason I would want to defend my house with an NFA weapon, that puts me at far too great a risk of 1) Losing my gun/suppressor 2) explaining to the court why X or Y wouldn't do.

My suggestion, if you're going to use a rifle to defend your house, shoot the fastest bullets you can, if you have to shoot to kill, make sure you come out on top.