16" Barrel with Rifle Length Gas System

On one of my rifles I have an 18" white oak precision HBAR (I live in MD) with a rifle length gas system, this is a very soft shooting setup. But for some reason the 18 inch barrel is just bothering me, it just feels a little long to me and I just prefer a 16". Now I know a rifle length system is not reccomended for a 16 but I was doing some research and there are people who are running a rifle legenth on 16's and 14.5's but with tuned up setups to compensate for the gas system/barrel length. Am I crazy for thinking about cutting my barrel to try this setup or should I scrap it and buy a 16" warsport HBAR with a mid length?
 

Proximus

Newbie
Yes, you're crazy. :)

I wouldn't cut down a barrel to get a rifle-length gas system on a 16 inch barrel (Dissipator) as you'll be out of a functional upper (or rifle if it's your only upper) until the barrel is cut down, gas port resized (if necessary), and reassembled. It makes more sense to build or buy a dedicated Dissipator upper.

A. Delton and Model 1 Sales sell them. DPMS and other manufacturer's versions still show up at shows, as used rifles at stores, and in online auctions. This is the out-of-box solution and won't set you back very much.
B. You can buy or order a purpose-built barrel made/sold by Voodoo Innovations, Adams Arms, Rainier Arms, Spinta Precision, Delton, Model 1, etc. and then install it in an upper. You probably won't have to adjust the gas port size, but you may still want an adjustable gas block to "tune it" for optimal operation with a particular load. This is the build-it-yourself solution and like any custom build, can be as expensive as you want it to be.

A properly built Dissipator should operate reliably with a carbine buffer (~3 oz) and carbine spring, as well as a standard M-16 BCG. If it is short-cycling, check gas tube/key/block alignment and so forth before opening up the gas port larger than ~.09. If you do have to open up the gas port, do so in very small increments (.001 or less).
 

Longeye

Established
AFAIK, no reputable (duty grade) manufacturer builds one of these. Dwell time is pretty short and on the descending side of the pressure curve.
Go with a 16" midlength from a reputable maker. BCM, Daniels Defense, etc.

Delton, DPMS and Model 1 are squarely in the hopeful hobbyist category.
 

Proximus

Newbie
It's more of a marketing and supply issue than a technical one. Mid-length gas systems are probably optimal for a patrol rifle, but carbine-length systems are generally what they push. Cutting down an 18 or 20 inch barrel is generally a hobbyist/non-duty enterprise and option (A) reflects that. So if he wants a Dissipator upper, why not? His options are low-end out-of-the-box models or a custom build which can be every bit better than, equal to, or worse than, (particularly if improperly assembled) a rifle from BCM, DD, etc.

(BTW, choices of on-duty patrol rifles are generally restricted by departments, particularly large ones, and rarely include manufacturers such as BCM, DD, etc. They're usually specific Sig Sauer, Rock River, or Colt models and not what I would consider to be the best of quality or reputation.)
 

Greg "Sully" Sullivan

Too Established
Vendor
VIP
We have built 16" long sight radius guns for decades. We machine these barrels in both carbine and mid-length, with the most popular being carbine length. I am a huge fan of a long sight radius, as we find that people generally perform better for accuracy and speed when compared to shorter sight radius system.

When teaching armorer courses, we spend lots of time going through how the AR15 / M16 weapon systems runs, timing and reliability of the gas system. If you want a 16" barrel with long sight radius, and it has to be reliable with just about any ammunition in any environment, then you need to find a carbine or mid-length gas system, both of which have enough barrel past the gas port to allow enough gas to travel back through the bolt carrier so it gets enough pressure to fully cycle rearward. The longer rifle length gas system on a 16" barrel will generally run most 5.56 ammuntion, as the 5.56 is a higher pressure as compared to .223 which has less pressure. The longer rifle length gas system on a 16" barrel barely has enough barrel past the gas port (Dwell time) to reliably get enough gas back into the gas tube/bolt carrier, and can short stroke with .223, short stroke can be a fail to eject, and/or recock the hammer, and/or fail to push the bolt carrier back far enough so as it travels forward it can strip the next live round off the magazine.

IMHO, if wanting a 16" barrel with long sight radius, if the front sight base is fixed then opt for a carbine or mid-length gas system, or get a barrel that has carbine or mid-length gas and use a long free float fore-end and attach a front sight to the tube.

CY6
Greg Sullivan "Sully"
SLR15 Rifles
TheDefensiveEdge.com
(763) 712-0123
 

Proximus

Newbie
I think that the appeal of the rifle length gas system is not just the longer sight radius of a gas block sight, but the lower felt recoil, faster re-acquisition of sight picture, and reduced wear due to lower pressure and heat. It's the faster re-acquisition of sight picture that makes rife-length gas systems preferred in 3-gun competitions (usually with an 18 inch barrel). Bring the length down to a 16 inch barrel can improve the handling of the rifle, but at the cost of velocity (~100 ft/sec). The shorter dwell time also makes proper assembly and gas porting more critical, but it should be argued that both should be done right to begin with.

Short-stroking can be caused by a variety of issues aside from gas port dimensions, such as gas leakage, misalignment of the gas key/tube/block, mis-timed gas rings, over-pressured (relatively speaking) cartridges, overly-tight or rough chambers, incorrect buffer springs or buffers, hammer interference, high magazine feed lips, magazine over-insertion (out of spec magazine, magazine catch, etc.), or simply rough finishes on internals (usually self-correcting during the 100 - 200 round break-in period).
 

Proximus

Newbie
A longer dwell time (longer sustain pressure) can overcome many shortcomings in a rifle, but it doesn't subsequently invalidate configurations with shorter dwell times--many rifles with 16 inch rifle-length gas systems function reliably. It's simply easier to blame the shorter dwell time for symptoms caused by undiagnosed problems. It's another reason that I recommend building or buying a new upper in that configuration rather than simply swapping out a barrel and gas tube, or cutting down an existing barrel. (Of course, if you purchase a complete upper, you should inspect it, even if it's from a highly reputable company.) It doesn't eliminate issues with the lower, such as buffer weight and spring. If the individual normally uses a heavier buffer or spring in his lower(s), it might be best to have a separate lower with standard carbine buffer and spring to use with the new upper.
 

Longeye

Established
Inspect the new upper for what? What can be seen short of an armorer teardown? The gas tube alignment is about the only thing that can be inspected OTC.

While we can tune a rifle or carbine to sort of run in almost any configuration, the bottom line is "Should we?"

If you start with one parameter way out on the ragged edge of reliability, every other parameter gets strained to accommodate the original outlier. For absolute reliability, it is better to be sitting somewhere near the middle of the scatter plot. That minimizes ammo sensitivity, temp sensitivity, moon phases and all the other minutia you mentioned. Some of which is straight bullshit such as the "mistimed gas rings". A lot of the rest is specific to hobby grade equipment.

"Softer recoil" and "Smoother recoil" are both pretty subjective terms. Reduced wear on components is another term that is rarely quantified. Is the reduced wear 2% or 18%? What does that mean on an upper that the vast majority of us won't shoot to failure or end of service life? Faster reacquisition of sights is something that can sort of be measured with split times, but is likely more of a training/practice function.
Well chosen muzzle devices can make a fair amount of difference while having no reliability downside.

I am just not seeing the juice be worth the squeeze when we already have mid gas systems that work so well on 14.5" and 16" systems that are GTG off the shelf with no tuning required.
 

Proximus

Newbie
Inspect the new upper for what? What can be seen short of an armorer teardown? The gas tube alignment is about the only thing that can be inspected OTC.
Not just gas tube alignment, but properly staked gas keys, buffer weight and spring coils, gas rings, the finish on internals, etc. That's even before you go to the range to look at your casing ejection pattern, test different cartridges for properly cycling, check for bolt bounce, and so forth. And then afterwards, performing a thorough cleaning, checking for gas leakage under the gas block (evidenced by excess carbon under the block) and unusual wear, and checking casings for distortions and excessive rim damage. While some leakage is considered "normal", out of spec barrel contours and gas block dimensions can leak enough gas to cause or contribute to issues.

While we can tune a rifle or carbine to sort of run in almost any configuration, the bottom line is "Should we?"

If you start with one parameter way out on the ragged edge of reliability, every other parameter gets strained to accommodate the original outlier.
Didn't we already do so a number of times with the system and moreover, make it standard? In order to overcome higher pressures and longer dwell times associated with shorter gas systems, adding heavier buffers and springs became common. In fact, I would wager that many manufacturers (including the "reputable" ones) use H and H2 buffers with their rifles, not the standard carbine buffer. Why? To handle the over-gassing issues common with carbine-length gas systems. Even many rifles with mid-length gas systems use H buffers.

There are already products for shorter dwell times and lower gas pressure. Blast-redirecting/back-pressure increasing muzzle devices are common with SBRs with their short barrels and dwell times. Lighter buffers and springs, adjustable gas blocks, as well as lighter weight bolt carriers, are very common in the 3-gun circuit. A rifle with a 16 inch barrel and rifle-length gas system should function reliably with standard carbine parts, but if someone wants that added margin, there are parts available. However, it's unnecessary for normal function and associated more with tuning for a particular load to squeeze every bit of performance without losing reliability.

For absolute reliability, it is better to be sitting somewhere near the middle of the scatter plot. That minimizes ammo sensitivity, temp sensitivity, moon phases and all the other minutia you mentioned.
That's why I think that the mid-length system is probably better for patrol rifles. Patrol rifles are often of mediocre quality, despite supposedly using mil-spec parts according to their respective manufacturers. As such, having a mid-length gas system helps with over-gassing and under-gassing issues that are common with the platform.

Some of which is straight bullshit such as the "mistimed gas rings". A lot of the rest is specific to hobby grade equipment.
Stacked tolerances.

"Softer recoil" and "Smoother recoil" are both pretty subjective terms. Reduced wear on components is another term that is rarely quantified. Is the reduced wear 2% or 18%? What does that mean on an upper that the vast majority of us won't shoot to failure or end of service life? Faster reacquisition of sights is something that can sort of be measured with split times, but is likely more of a training/practice function.
A mediocre rifle is probably fine for most shooters, just like a mediocre sedan would suit the needs of most drivers. However, that doesn't lesson the demand for configurations that suit particularly purposes, even if the user doesn't have the actual need or ability which would make the configuration necessary. How many shooters actually need a Geissele or AR Gold trigger? How about nitrided parts? Match or Wylde chambers? How many shooters shoot enough to shoot out their barrels? So do most users outside of the competition circuits need the performance of a rifle-length gas system? Probably not. Just like most drivers don't need vehicles with 300+ horsepower or 300+ lb. ft of torque.

Well chosen muzzle devices can make a fair amount of difference while having no reliability downside.
TANSTAAFL Generally speaking, yes. However, every muzzle device has advantages and disadvantages. Recoil-compensating muzzle devices have more side and user-end blast, as well as muzzle flash. Flash suppressing muzzle devices have more blast. Blast-redirecting/back-pressure-increasing devices have more recoil and muzzle flash. An acceptable drawback in a flat range in broad daylight, may not be acceptable in an enclosed room, or at night. Every situation has the right muzzle device, but there isn't a right muzzle device for every situation. Multi-role muzzle devices are compromises and don't do everything well.

I am just not seeing the juice be worth the squeeze when we already have mid gas systems that work so well on 14.5" and 16" systems that are GTG off the shelf with no tuning required.
We also also have off-the-shelf rifle-length gas systems that are GTG. Most, if not all, DMR/SPR and 3-Gun builds are rifle-length gas systems.

Is it worthwhile to squeeze the performance of a rifle-length gas system out of a carbine-length rifle? That's up to the end-user to decide. Personally, I don't recommend it for everyone, but I prefer shooting it more than most of my more commonly-configured rifles. YMMV
 
Black River Tactical has a new 16" barrel with what they call an extended length gas system. Longer that a mid, shorter than intermediate. All the bells and whistles checked as far as specs.
 
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