1-4/5/6/8 question

[Pat Tarrant]

So, I've got about $1200-$1400 to spend on a low power variable optic for a 14.5" AR I'm building. The main use will be general purpose, with home defense thrown in as well (12" SBR is my primary HD gun) I know my budget puts me in interesting territory. My options seem to be in the contested Razor II 1-6 v Steiner T5Xi segment. However, there are some interesting additions. I know a guy who's selling a new USO SR-4c that falls in my budget (new cost around $2000), the new Trijicon Accupower 1-8 I've seen for sale under $1200 as well. I'm sure there are others.
I do have some concerns with each:

Razor: Really heavy, which isn't as important to me as my wife, but is still a concern.

Steiner: Can't seem to find a decent deal on them, and few have used them (though those who have really like them)

USO: Sketchy past, as documented by Pat over at LF, though they've been under new ownership for a couple years and Defoor speaks highly of them.

Trijicon: Unknown new scope, possible overkill for a 14.5" 5.56 gun, possible weak illumination compared to the others.

Others: I don't know what I don't know here, so please feel free to inform me.

 

[Dave_Thomas]

FWIW, a good friend and LEO has been running the Atibal 1-8 on his 3-gun rifle and loving it. Enough so that he set his kids up with the same optic for their 3-gun rifles as well. It is definitely under your budget constraints, running right around $400.

30mm, capped turrets, it's lighter than both the Vortex and the Steiner at 17.4oz, and he raves about the glass, especially considering the price point. Variable brightness illumination as well.

I thought hard about one, but eventually settled on the Sig Whiskey3 2-7 instead for my 10.5". I went that route for the duplex SFP reticle and single dot illumination.

 

[Pat Tarrant]

Thanks, but I saved up for something higher end. If an Atibal fails during a match, no worries. If it fails in real life...whicheck is why I have aimpoints instead of primary arms red dots.

2-7 is not at option. 1x on the low end is essential.

 

[Dave_Thomas]

Not a problem. I don't have the capital for high end glass, so I use what I can afford. Sig also makes a Tango6 1-6 that is quite nice, the local shop I work for sometimes is a Sig Dealer so I've had a chance to fondle the one we had in stock for awhile. I can offer no real-world behind the gun experience, but fit and finish is great, and glass is clear. Those are at the top of your budget, Optics Planet has one that I saw for around $1400.

 

[Pat Tarrant]

Thanks Dave. I saved up for this, as I want a high end optic on this gun. I don't have Kahles or S&B money, but I've got options. I had been thinking of a Steiner P4Xi before I sold a couple things that bumped up my budget considerably.

 

[Roy]

Im Researching the same Topic right now. I have been leaning toward the Trijicion 1-4X24 based on the history.
I have heard good things about Meopta and the Steiner. I have constantly heard that the Vortex stuff is good but heavy.

Steve Fisher was dropping a bunch of knowledge on this earlier on a podcast and live stream.

I look forward to seeing this play out

 

[TheReaper]

I'm in for the same thing. I've pretty much narrowed it down to the US Optics SR-4C and Nightforce NSX 1-4. I'd say that I'll be going with the SR-4C, it seems to do everything that I want and need for a patrol rifle optic.

 

[Vegasshooter]

This is an area dear to my heart. I was in the same boat not long ago. A little background: I'm a firearms trainer for a very large dept here in Las Vegas, Nv. You can probably guess who if you look at Vegas departments. We have just started a LPV program for our officers carrying rifles. The prerequisites are pretty steep, because adding a 1-4, or 1-6 LPV to a rifle is a serious commitment, and we DONT want a bunch of guys thinking they're now snipers running around. I have T&E'd several scopes in the 1-4 and 1-6 range. Some include:
Vortex-Razor, PST 1-4, Strike Eagle
Nightforce 1-4
Bushnell Elite Tactical 1-6 and 1-8
US Optic 1-4
Burris XTR II 1-8
Kahles 1-6
Primary Arms 1-6 and new 1-6 Platinum FFP
Leupold MK6

I can tell you this, which I'm sure you already know: you do get what you pay for, and nothing is without a negative in some way. My personal choice, and what I spent my money on was the Vortex Razor, and the Burris 1-8 FFP. Yes, the Vortex is heavy( nothing is without a negative) but the glass is awesome. It is incredibly bright and clear. They have done something to make the scope outer ring almost disappear when looking through the thing. The red dot is super clean, daylight bright, and small enough to be very precise. I don't mind a SFP in a LPV because I'm not using it to range targets, and really, it's either used as a red dot at 1x, or at 6x. I'm not dialing for distance shots either.
The Bushnell Elite series did also impress me very much. Great glass, all around a solid package. The Kahles is AMAZING. I mean, it's a Kahles, but it is very expensive. I'm not sure it's enough better than the Razor to justify $500 more in cost. The US Optic and the NF were way behind in my opinion. I know this is going to ruffle some feathers. That said, I spent a decent amount of time behind both. I just feel like for the money, they really lacked some big features. The NF is not even close to daylight bright, and the USO is lacking in power (1-4) and the glass isn't as bright or as clean as some of the Japanese glass.

This is all very subjective, and different things matter more to different folks. I would be happy to answer any specific questions. Everything is a matter of opinion. These are just some of my personal observations.

 

[Pat Tarrant]

Thanks Vegas. I did a lot of juggling numbers in my head, and figured that i had a roughly $1600 budget. I ended up going with the Trijicon Accupower 1-8, which I get for a pretty good price. That left me enough to get a Steiner P4Xi 1-4 for my SBR. I know the P4Xi isn't quite up to the T5X line, but I've read a lot of outstanding things about it, and think that it makes a great option for my shorter, lighter rifle, while allowing me to go 1-8 on my longer gun. Aaron Cowen's recommendations on the FB discussion. If either of those scopes doesn't quite fill my needs, I can probably take advantage of their popularity and offload them quickly for what I have in them.

 

[Sunshine_Shooter]

...and the USO is lacking in power (1-4) and the glass isn't as bright or as clean as some of the Japanese glass.

USO is now making a 1-6. Would that meaningfully change your opinion on them, or would they still need to up the glass quality before upping it's rank?

 

[Vegasshooter]

I think they are doing, or I know they did a 1-8. Those are definitely better options. That said, the cost of the USO versus the competition is where I think the USO falls short. I know they are bomb proof, I don't doubt for a minute that they will last, but at $1700 the Kahles is a 1-6 that's insanely good. The Razor 1-6 is built like a tank. Thicker than standard tube diameter, steel gears vs bronze, 1-6 glass that's off the chart clean. I'm just saying the USO is too much money for the product. Heck, the 1-6/1-8 Bushnell Elite Tacticals are tough to beat at $1k.

Remember, glass and scope options are incredibly personal things. We live in a time where the choices are better than EVER, and I see them getting better all the time. I don't want to bash anyone, they are all good at that point. Some, I believe, offer a much better value.

 

[Pat Tarrant]

So, having a little bit of buyers remorse on the Trijicon 1-8. The glass is better than any scope I owned, the illumation on the red reticle is daylight bright enough for me, but the thing is very heavy, and as Yeti has noted, at 8x, the reticle seems to get in its own way and obscures a lot of target, making repeated precision shots difficult. I'm considering others, but coming up with tough decisions. The Razor is just as heavy, the Eotech Vudu makes an interesting possibility, but I don't generally like beta-testing at my cost, the Mk6 has illumination issues. Everything I've read says the Kahles is really the killer here, and if I offload my 1-8 and a spare red dot I have laying around, I can probably afford it. The down side would be that I'd be down a red dot that I had planned for another gun. Opinions?

 

[Mike Erickson]

I am really liking my Kahles. Swarovski is distributing for them, and they offer a good LE price if that helps.

The illumination has been fine in the CO sunshine and the SM1 reticle isn't tied to any particular load with the mil hash marks.

The thing is light, right at one pound, and the FOV at 1X is wider than anything else I've seen. The fin for adjusting the power is big enough without being over done, and I added a little strip of hook Velcro to help with the grip.

I strongly dislike the push button brightness adjustments on some optics and think the dial type is much easier to use. The onboard battery storage is a nice touch too.

 

[voodoo_man]

I have did a few reviews of various optics you listed, of them the razor 1-6 is probably the best all around optic with the most usable reticle you'll find on the market currently.

If you are in the "you get what you pay for" camp then kahles or swazi are the only options you should even be remotely considering. The kahles glass is very good and their reticles are useable.

But, if you do not mind waiting a bit he new NF 1-8 which should be out this year is probably going to be the game changer everyone has been waiting for...

 

[Pat Tarrant]

I haven't seen anything about the NF 1-8. Any ideas of price point? I'm in no huge rush.

 

[voodoo_man]

I haven't seen anything about the NF 1-8. Any ideas of price point? I'm in no huge rush.

I just know if its existence and nothing more, even if I did I could not say.

 

[Beat Trash]

I have did a few reviews of various optics you listed, of them the razor 1-6 is probably the best all around optic with the most usable reticle you'll find on the market currently.

If you are in the "you get what you pay for" camp then kahles or swazi are the only options you should even be remotely considering. The kahles glass is very good and their reticles are useable.

But, if you do not mind waiting a bit he new NF 1-8 which should be out this year is probably going to be the game changer everyone has been waiting for...

Which reticle is it is the one you find to be the most usable reticle?

If the new NF 1-8 is able to keep the weight down, than I'll gladly wait. Any information you could provide would be appreciated.

 

[voodoo_man]

Which reticle is it is the one you find to be the most usable reticle?

If the new NF 1-8 is able to keep the weight down, than I'll gladly wait. Any information you could provide would be appreciated.

Can't provide any info on the NF as I don't know enough to provide any.

As for most usable it really depends on the old cliche, what is your mission?

If I am shooting 600y+ then I'd like a christmas tree type setup that does the math for me.

If I am 0-50 and I only want magnification for PID then I probably need something with a firedot/red dot style setting and the reticle to be easy to use.

My personal preference is to use mil/mil, hashes over dots and an RDS style illumination otherwise.

 

[pointblank4445]

Which reticle is it is the one you find to be the most usable reticle?

If the new NF 1-8 is able to keep the weight down, than I'll gladly wait. Any information you could provide would be appreciated.

Aside from the subjective opinions on reticles and purpose are the pro's and con's of those in 1st and 2nd Focal Plane and the style of illumination.

I like my 1-4x's 2nd FP because I'm not doing a ton with mil holds on anything but the top end 4x. Likewise, I don't want my reticle to disappear on the low end and be 100% battery dependent when I have to use a flash/fire dot or illumination on max power.
When using a 1st/Front FP scope, I like the reticle to have some meat...or bold/filled duplex on the edge of the 3, 6, 9 o'clock so that when I'm dialed low, I have some frame of reference when my crosshair and center portion of my reticle disappears. This way, the rest of the reticle is still useable on the top end of the magnification past 4x on up to the top end (8x on most of my optics now).
Either way, keeping things simple is the way to go. A traditional #7 crosshair does just fine for a close-quarter low variable and will do just fine holding out to 400y. A traditional P3 Mildot does just fine on 2/3 IPSC steel out to 850. I don't like the rigidity of BDC reticles and I hate the X-mas tree reticles.

I'm very curious to see how the NF offering will play out. I don't see much in their reticle suite that tickles me and they've avoided day-light illumination up until this point.

 

[voodoo_man]

I'm very curious to see how the NF offering will play out. I don't see much in their reticle suite that tickles me and they've avoided day-light illumination up until this point.

http://soldiersystems.net/2016/07/23/ray-dennis-group-acquires-horus-vision/

NF is part of the same umbrella which recently acquired Horus. So if I were a betting man, I'd bet that NF's higher end offerings will features Horus-styled/typed/equipped reticles.