Suppressor’s impact on the handling characteristics of rifles

SmElly

Regular Member
Looking for resources. Personal anecdotes welcome, hard data (shot timer results etc.)even more welcome.

It’s my understanding that a can will make the rifle recoil more due to direction of gasses, and swing worse due to weight.

My goal is to quantify this so that I can attain a better understanding in order to better weigh pros and cons of suppressor use.

Furthermore, I’d welcome discussion of whether or not the cons of suppressor use are worth the gain in hearing protection. Is there a point where one might say “fuck my hearing, I want to be able to handle the threat more effectively”?
 

Chris Sizelove

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Your question needs more specifics in order to better address it. What length of rifle/carbine are you looking at suppressing, and what is your goal with the amount of suppression?

I have ran many dedicated suppressed carbines in the 10.5/12.5/14.5 sizes ( I.E. it was always on, never taken off for anything) and there was ZERO degradation to "handling characteristics" and only capability increases in all other applicable fields ( ballistics / signature / report / recoil) and negligible issues due to form factor only with a 14.5 length gun.

IMHO in a perfect world any carbine under 14.5 would have a suppressor on it. There is no downside to that and many, many upsides.
 

user12358

Regular Member
This is going to depend what you are looking to do as far as application. From what I am reading it sounds like you are talking about fighting rifles and not precision rigs, let me know if I am wrong. First of all, to set expectations, you are always going to need hearing protection with a supersonic centerfire gas gun. It is infinitely more pleasant with a can when you don't have ears but it is still going to damage your hearing. What it won't do is significantly impact your ability to hear in the short term and it will significantly reduce the concussion.

You will find that cans reduce recoil on almost all rifles with proper baffle design. The weight is added to the end but they are still plenty "swingable." A 12.5" gun with a full size can will run the same splits between target as a 16" without a can as they will be near identical weight and length.

First you need to look at what rifle you are looking to suppress. My personal sweet spot is a 10.3" to 12.5" 5.56x46 with a full length suppressor for more short range applications and a 14.5" 5.56x45 with a mini can. To give specifics on those two my 12.5" has a Surefire RC and my 14.5" has a Surefire Mini 2. There is really no reason other than cost to not dedicate as suppressor to every fighting rifle you own or use.

I also own or have significant rounds on the AAC M4-2K, AAC Mini-4, SilencerCo Omega 30, SilencerCo Hybrid, SilencerCo Saker 7.62&5.56, SilencerCo Specwar 7.62&5.56, Rugged Surge, Dead Air Sandman K, and Liberty Leonidas as far as short to intermediate fighting rifle cans go if you are looking for specific reviews.
 

Yondering

Regular Member
It’s my understanding that a can will make the rifle recoil more due to direction of gasses,

No, quite the opposite. Most suppressors reduce recoil significantly, about like a good muzzle brake or a little less.

The obvious answers to your question are that suppressors add weight and length, but the specifics are highly variable. With most SBR size rifles, you can expect adding a suppressor to put the weapon in the same size/weight envelope as a 16"-18" carbine, but of course that can vary quite a bit in either direction.

If we're talking about rifle caliber AR platforms, something like a 9" 300 Blk with a TB Ultra 5 would still be a fairly small package, a little shorter than a 16" carbine and about the same weight. On the other end of the spectrum, adding one of the big 338 cans to a 24" bolt action gets pretty big and unweildy.
 

David Mayeur

Regular Member
I was finally able to run my Sandman-S on a 16" build recently.

I'm using the .30 cal endcap, midlength gas, H2 buffer, and a standard charging handle. I do not experience gas to the face. The rifle shoots soft suppressed than unsuppressed, but shoots significantly soft unsuppressed and suppressed compared to DD factory rifles I was able to compare it to recently. I've shot a lot of rifles, and I can say that ensuring you have a properly sized gas port and properly weighted buffer is paramount to having a smooth gun.

It's long on a 16" gun, but it's not unwieldy. A SWAT buddy came over recently, who has been running around with a suppressed Mk18 for the past few months, and agreed to that it wasn't terrible even though it's long. Obviously it would be more preferential to have a shorter barrel to offset the length of the can. I wear ear pro even when shooting a suppressed 556 gun. It's quieter, but still loud enough that prolonged exposure can cause issues.

 

SmElly

Regular Member
I have ran many dedicated suppressed carbines in the 10.5/12.5/14.5 sizes ( I.E. it was always on, never taken off for anything) and there was ZERO degradation to "handling characteristics" and only capability increases in all other applicable fields ( ballistics / signature / report / recoil) and negligible issues due to form factor only with a 14.5 length gun.

IMHO in a perfect world any carbine under 14.5 would have a suppressor on it. There is no downside to that and many, many upsides.
This is exactly the type of response I was looking for. Thanks.

To answer your call for more specificity, I’m considering an 11.5-12.5” stick with just enough suppressor to be “quieter” not “quiet”.

I’d still appreciate any input outside those parameters though.

This is going to depend what you are looking to do as far as application. From what I am reading it sounds like you are talking about fighting rifles and not precision rigs, let me know if I am wrong. First of all, to set expectations, you are always going to need hearing protection with a supersonic centerfire gas gun. It is infinitely more pleasant with a can when you don't have ears but it is still going to damage your hearing. What it won't do is significantly impact your ability to hear in the short term and it will significantly reduce the concussion.

You will find that cans reduce recoil on almost all rifles with proper baffle design. The weight is added to the end but they are still plenty "swingable." A 12.5" gun with a full size can will run the same splits between target as a 16" without a can as they will be near identical weight and length.

First you need to look at what rifle you are looking to suppress. My personal sweet spot is a 10.3" to 12.5" 5.56x46 with a full length suppressor for more short range applications and a 14.5" 5.56x45 with a mini can. To give specifics on those two my 12.5" has a Surefire RC and my 14.5" has a Surefire Mini 2. There is really no reason other than cost to not dedicate as suppressor to every fighting rifle you own or use.

I also own or have significant rounds on the AAC M4-2K, AAC Mini-4, SilencerCo Omega 30, SilencerCo Hybrid, SilencerCo Saker 7.62&5.56, SilencerCo Specwar 7.62&5.56, Rugged Surge, Dead Air Sandman K, and Liberty Leonidas as far as short to intermediate fighting rifle cans go if you are looking for specific reviews.

Thanks for the input. You are correct, I’m not bringing precision rifles into consideration.

However. I have to disagree with you on your weight statement. Your average 16” govt barrel is gonna be somewhere in the 27-29 oz range.

12.5” govt barrel w/surefire mini can comes in at approximately 36 ounces, roughly 3/4 of a pound heavier at the front end.

This is a moot point if this weight hasn’t affected your shooting.
 

SmElly

Regular Member
No, quite the opposite. Most suppressors reduce recoil significantly, about like a good muzzle brake or a little less.

The obvious answers to your question are that suppressors add weight and length, but the specifics are highly variable. With most SBR size rifles, you can expect adding a suppressor to put the weapon in the same size/weight envelope as a 16"-18" carbine, but of course that can vary quite a bit in either direction.

If we're talking about rifle caliber AR platforms, something like a 9" 300 Blk with a TB Ultra 5 would still be a fairly small package, a little shorter than a 16" carbine and about the same weight. On the other end of the spectrum, adding one of the big 338 cans to a 24" bolt action gets pretty big and unweildy.

I was finally able to run my Sandman-S on a 16" build recently.

I'm using the .30 cal endcap, midlength gas, H2 buffer, and a standard charging handle. I do not experience gas to the face. The rifle shoots soft suppressed than unsuppressed, but shoots significantly soft unsuppressed and suppressed compared to DD factory rifles I was able to compare it to recently. I've shot a lot of rifles, and I can say that ensuring you have a properly sized gas port and properly weighted buffer is paramount to having a smooth gun.

It's long on a 16" gun, but it's not unwieldy. A SWAT buddy came over recently, who has been running around with a suppressed Mk18 for the past few months, and agreed to that it wasn't terrible even though it's long. Obviously it would be more preferential to have a shorter barrel to offset the length of the can. I wear ear pro even when shooting a suppressed 556 gun. It's quieter, but still loud enough that prolonged exposure can cause issues.


Noted. Thank you gentlemen.
 

user12358

Regular Member
However. I have to disagree with you on your weight statement. Your average 16” govt barrel is gonna be somewhere in the 27-29 oz range.

12.5” govt barrel w/surefire mini can comes in at approximately 36 ounces, roughly 3/4 of a pound heavier at the front end.

You are forgetting the weight of the longer rail that you traditionally see (such as Wookie's video) and having the light and laser mounted even further from the receiver. You just need to run a couple of target transition drills to see how close they are in feeling.
 

David Mayeur

Regular Member
You are forgetting the weight of the longer rail that you traditionally see (such as Wookie's video) and having the light and laser mounted even further from the receiver. You just need to run a couple of target transition drills to see how close they are in feeling.

Correct. It's not the overall weight, it's the amount of weight applied to a long rifle. A 10 lb 26" OAL rifle will be easier to maneuver than a 5 lb 48" OAL rifle.
 

Arete

Regular Member
My first suppressed carbine (LE duty carbine) was a 14.5" with perm attached muzzle device (4 oz) on which I mounted a 18 oz/~6" long can.

Didn't care for the weight, length, negative affects on gun handling. The juice wasn't worth the squeeze.

Transitioned to a 10.5" SBR with that same can, been using this for several years now and it's working well for me. Would like less weight up front, though. A 12 oz thread on can would shave 10 oz off that setup.

Lately been experimenting with a 11.5" SBR with a 12 oz/~6" long thread on Ti can, and like that combo A LOT. Feels and handles very much like an unsuppressed 16" carbine.
 

Nate Osborne

NateMac
Staff member
Moderator
I own a sandman S and K, and use them on an 11.5, 13.7, and 16" gun. As would be common sense, the weight of the cans is exacerbated as the barrel length is increased. My current set-up that I use for almost everything is a 13.7" 5.56 with the sandman-K attached. This is ideal for me as I get a acceptable amount of forend to hold the gun like I want to, enough barrel to keep velocity up, while not being as long as a 16" gun. The K works very well as a can to take the edge off of the noise. I have shot it indoors a few times without ears on and it is loud and uncomfortable, but taking shots indoors without ears will not totally ruin your hearing, which was the goal. This rifle is next to my bed, so I wanted a set-up that would be possible to shoot sans ear protection and not be overly damaging to my ability to hear.

Putting the K on the 11.5 gun is very handy, but sounds quite a bit louder than the 13.7, as well as having more muzzle flash. I invested in the flash hiding end cap from dead air, and that has seemed to help. Also, bulk blaster ammo like federal xm193 is much flashier at the muzzle with the K than something like gold dots or federal fusion which I keep in the gun.

When it comes to 'performance,' I actually feel like I shoot my 13.7 gun better with the can than without. With less noise and concussion, it's easier for me to keep my eyes open and track the recoil of the gun to get it back on target and press the trigger again. I have not done any significant numbers testing to back this up, but I have ran through a list of drills with the rifle set up with a can, and based on my current ability to shoot a rifle, the can is not decreasing performance in any significant way, while adding benefits.

Having owned the sandman cans for some time, and shooting them quite a bit, I realize now that, for mer personally, I could do just fine with a lighter-weight can that is less 'rugged' for lack of a better word. For example, on my short 300 blackout rifle, I use an Omega 9K. It is very short and incredibly light weight. I can't shoot a belt-fed 308 through it like my sandman cans, but I don't own and probably never will own, such a firearm. If you are trying to decide whether to suppress your rifle or not, for me after owning cans and shooting suppressed, I will never go back. The comfort and enjoyment levels go way up. If you have concerns about weight and handling, there are many high-quality cans out there with surprising levels of durability that are also light weight. I do like having at least one rifle can like the Sandman that I know is as close to bombproof as I can get, but something a bit lighter might be what you are looking for. If you are in the Northern Utah area, I am happy to bring out a variety of cans and barrel lengths for you to try out. I also have friends around here that have a variety of suppressors that you could get a pretty good idea of what you like. If not, I would encourage you to go out and try before you buy, especially with suppressors. Even if that means buying a muzzle device or two, or driving a bit to meet someone. The benefit of being able to know exactly what you are getting in sound reduction and handling, etc. are well worth it.
 

SmElly

Regular Member
Lately been experimenting with a 11.5" SBR with a 12 oz/~6" long thread on Ti can, and like that combo A LOT. Feels and handles very much like an unsuppressed 16" carbine.
Noted. Thank you for the input.

When it comes to 'performance,' I actually feel like I shoot my 13.7 gun better with the can than without. With less noise and concussion, it's easier for me to keep my eyes open and track the recoil of the gun to get it back on target and press the trigger again. I have not done any significant numbers testing to back this up, but I have ran through a list of drills with the rifle set up with a can, and based on my current ability to shoot a rifle, the can is not decreasing performance in any significant way, while adding benefits.

If you are in the Northern Utah area, I am happy to bring out a variety of cans and barrel lengths for you to try out. I also have friends around here that have a variety of suppressors that you could get a pretty good idea of what you like. If not, I would encourage you to go out and try before you buy, especially with suppressors.

Excellent. Thank you for sharing your experience. Also, your offer is incredibly kind. However, youre quite a bit too far north from me :(

This thread has been successful as hell. Much appreciation to everyone willing to indulge my ignorance.
 

Nate Osborne

NateMac
Staff member
Moderator
I had this thread in mind when I went out to test some blackout ammo with a friend of mine. We both have 7-8" blackouts; I'm still waiting for my Omega 9k to get approved, so I had the sandman on mine while he has a Sig 7.62 QD on his. The sound from his gun was very impressive. I honestly found the supersonics from his gun more pleasant to the ear than mine, and subs out of that sig can were comically quiet. Rumor has it that Q will be making a 'plan b' adapter for the omega 9k and hunter line from silencerco to use their cherry bomb muzzle devices. If that is the case, I will most likely get that for my omega 9k, then down to road get one of the QD Q cans for when I really want the blackout to be quiet. I think the tubeless 1.75" diameter cans are an excellent option for many people, and I would consider something along the lines of the Q cans.
 
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