pointblank4445
Established
Yeah, not a fan AT ALL of any of the Horus options for any reason...pretty much leaves the Mil-R for most of their stuff since I don't do MOA
1-4/5/6/8 question
- Thread starter Pat Tarrant
- Start date
Yeah, not a fan AT ALL of any of the Horus options for any reason...pretty much leaves the Mil-R for most of their stuff since I don't do MOA
Andy Beefcastle
Member
I've heard the rumors for the NF 1-8x for over 6 months. While I'm sure it's in the works, it's likely that we won't see it until SHOT 2018 or 2019. Much like the BEAST, take the announced distribution start date and add at least 6 months to calculate your wait time.
Having run numerous LPVOs, with the last one I owned being a Leupold Mark6 1-6x CMR-W 7.62, I've come to the conclusion that FFP is worthless in an optic under ~10x. People use their scopes at 1x and at max magnification. SFP scopes have better illumination, and a reticle that is visible when it needs to be.
I was on the fence about the Trijicon 1-8x also, but I got hands-on and was convinced that it was not what I wanted. As you pointed out, the reticle gets in the way for precision follow-up shots and calling corrections. The illumination is sufficient for 1x CQB use, but I've seen better.
The Vortex Razor HD Gen2 1-6x has been the standard by which all other LPVOs have been judged. Great glass, RDS-bright illumination, durable and acceptable price. There are numerous optics that offer you a very good option. Optics like the Leupold VX-6/VX-6HD 1-6x FireDot, Burris XTR-II 1-5x (same tech as Steiner, just lower level of glass), Trijicon AccuPoint 1-6x and 1-4x and AccuPower 1-4x, Vortex Viper PST Gen2 1-6x, Meopta MeoStar 1-4x or MeoStar R2 1-6x, Kahles K16i and Steiner T5Xi. As you know, some of those are up in the $1500-2k range, like the Kahles. I have used a Kahles K16i, and it's probably the best LPVO on the market with a massive eye box, huge FOV, daylight visible illum, and amazing glass.
Short of spending the money on a Dual Focal Plane (DFP) scope, don't mess with FFP LPVOs. I would recommend that you look into a SFP scope. Look for used scopes as they come up on sites like SnipersHide and AR15.com. You can actually get some great optics for reasonable prices. Otherwise, if you qualify for LE or MIL pricing, start contacting companies and get their pricing guidelines. If not, there are several vendors on SnipersHide that offer moderate discounts to members of that forum.
Having run numerous LPVOs, with the last one I owned being a Leupold Mark6 1-6x CMR-W 7.62, I've come to the conclusion that FFP is worthless in an optic under ~10x. People use their scopes at 1x and at max magnification. SFP scopes have better illumination, and a reticle that is visible when it needs to be.
I was on the fence about the Trijicon 1-8x also, but I got hands-on and was convinced that it was not what I wanted. As you pointed out, the reticle gets in the way for precision follow-up shots and calling corrections. The illumination is sufficient for 1x CQB use, but I've seen better.
The Vortex Razor HD Gen2 1-6x has been the standard by which all other LPVOs have been judged. Great glass, RDS-bright illumination, durable and acceptable price. There are numerous optics that offer you a very good option. Optics like the Leupold VX-6/VX-6HD 1-6x FireDot, Burris XTR-II 1-5x (same tech as Steiner, just lower level of glass), Trijicon AccuPoint 1-6x and 1-4x and AccuPower 1-4x, Vortex Viper PST Gen2 1-6x, Meopta MeoStar 1-4x or MeoStar R2 1-6x, Kahles K16i and Steiner T5Xi. As you know, some of those are up in the $1500-2k range, like the Kahles. I have used a Kahles K16i, and it's probably the best LPVO on the market with a massive eye box, huge FOV, daylight visible illum, and amazing glass.
Short of spending the money on a Dual Focal Plane (DFP) scope, don't mess with FFP LPVOs. I would recommend that you look into a SFP scope. Look for used scopes as they come up on sites like SnipersHide and AR15.com. You can actually get some great optics for reasonable prices. Otherwise, if you qualify for LE or MIL pricing, start contacting companies and get their pricing guidelines. If not, there are several vendors on SnipersHide that offer moderate discounts to members of that forum.
So, having discussed and looked at various options, at length, and possibly overanalyzing, I ended up selling to Trij 1-8 to another member and ordering a Vudu 1-6 from Ike. Needing to pick up another mount, but hope to have things back together next week for a shakedown. I won't have ability to test past 100 yards, but I'll post opinions here based off initial observations and testing.
Andy Beefcastle
Member
What pushed you to the Vudu?
Talking to Fisher and he had a lot of positive things to say. I already knew that I wouldn't be happy with the Razors weight (same as the Trij 1-8).
I also got it for a good price, so if I don't end up liking it after a while, I should be able to sell for not much more than I have into it.
I was saving for a Kahles, and had enough to snag one on DVOR, but I also figured that the Kahles money would be enough to get me a Voodo PLUS most of the way to my first suppressor. I figured that a good optic plus a suppressor trumped a really good optic
I also got it for a good price, so if I don't end up liking it after a while, I should be able to sell for not much more than I have into it.
I was saving for a Kahles, and had enough to snag one on DVOR, but I also figured that the Kahles money would be enough to get me a Voodo PLUS most of the way to my first suppressor. I figured that a good optic plus a suppressor trumped a really good optic
Andy Beefcastle
Member
I just ask because I tried one out and the illumination was not as bright as I was expecting.
I've got my initial impressions up on a separate thread (https://primaryandsecondary.com/forum/index.php?threads/eotech-vudu-1-6-first-impressions.3172/). I haven't really had a chance to run it since my initial trip with it. I'm hoping to get it out again soon. I don't have easy access to a range that allows me to do much with multiple targets or ranges past 100 yards, so I'm going to be kind of limited until I can get to a class. I do plan to bring it with me to the FOP weekend in August.
Ben H
Member
@Vegasshooter @voodoo_man
Since you guys have played with a variety of them .... A friend has a Bushnell, and I REALLY like the horseshoe reticle. Looked nice and bright and it seemed it would be a lot easier/faster to pick up when using at 1x than a small thin illuminated dot or illuminated crosshair during daytime / outside. Maybe its just that I've never spent time on a scope. Am I off with this line of thinking? What has been your experience on the different reticles with getting shots off at 1x? For me personally, I would be willing to sacrifice a little on the glass quality, that I would rarely be using, if I can get target acquisition with times closer to a standard red dot. Also, does anyone have an opinion on how tough the Bushnell scopes are compared to other brands? I am willing to sacrifice on the glass quality, but if it loses zero or has a turret damaged simply by getting knocked over, its worthless to me. I am looking for my first LPVO, so other than looking through a couple at vendor shows and using an instructor's EOTech Vudu for a couple class drills, I have no experience with them.
Since you guys have played with a variety of them .... A friend has a Bushnell, and I REALLY like the horseshoe reticle. Looked nice and bright and it seemed it would be a lot easier/faster to pick up when using at 1x than a small thin illuminated dot or illuminated crosshair during daytime / outside. Maybe its just that I've never spent time on a scope. Am I off with this line of thinking? What has been your experience on the different reticles with getting shots off at 1x? For me personally, I would be willing to sacrifice a little on the glass quality, that I would rarely be using, if I can get target acquisition with times closer to a standard red dot. Also, does anyone have an opinion on how tough the Bushnell scopes are compared to other brands? I am willing to sacrifice on the glass quality, but if it loses zero or has a turret damaged simply by getting knocked over, its worthless to me. I am looking for my first LPVO, so other than looking through a couple at vendor shows and using an instructor's EOTech Vudu for a couple class drills, I have no experience with them.
Ben H
Member
@Vegasshooter @voodoo_man
Since you guys have played with a variety of them .... A friend has a Bushnell, and I REALLY like the horseshoe reticle. Looked nice and bright and it seemed it would be a lot easier/faster to pick up when using at 1x than a small thin illuminated dot or illuminated crosshair during daytime / outside. Maybe its just that I've never spent time on a scope. Am I off with this line of thinking? What has been your experience on the different reticles with getting shots off at 1x? For me personally, I would be willing to sacrifice a little on the glass quality, that I would rarely be using, if I can get target acquisition with times closer to a standard red dot. Also, does anyone have an opinion on how tough the Bushnell scopes are compared to other brands? I am willing to sacrifice on the glass quality, but if it loses zero or has a turret damaged simply by getting knocked over, its worthless to me. I am looking for my first LPVO, so other than looking through a couple at vendor shows and using an instructor's EOTech Vudu for a couple class drills, I have no experience with them.
Since you guys have played with a variety of them .... A friend has a Bushnell, and I REALLY like the horseshoe reticle. Looked nice and bright and it seemed it would be a lot easier/faster to pick up when using at 1x than a small thin illuminated dot or illuminated crosshair during daytime / outside. Maybe its just that I've never spent time on a scope. Am I off with this line of thinking? What has been your experience on the different reticles with getting shots off at 1x? For me personally, I would be willing to sacrifice a little on the glass quality, that I would rarely be using, if I can get target acquisition with times closer to a standard red dot. Also, does anyone have an opinion on how tough the Bushnell scopes are compared to other brands? I am willing to sacrifice on the glass quality, but if it loses zero or has a turret damaged simply by getting knocked over, its worthless to me. I am looking for my first LPVO, so other than looking through a couple at vendor shows and using an instructor's EOTech Vudu for a couple class drills, I have no experience with them.
voodoo_man
Established
I had a Burris MTAC 1-4x when they first came out which had a horseshoe, "Ballistic AR" reticle.
I have a few issues with horseshoe reticles, first and foremost is the fact that the round "shoe" is the same color as the "dot." If they were different colors I may be able to work something out as I know which color I should be looking at to aim with. I had an issue with picking up the top of the horseshoe doing speed/stress related shooting, especially from a low/high ready position. This was instantly resolved with an optic which did not have a horseshoe reticle. I may just not have had enough time to train into it properly, but I do not want to devote valuable time training something which does not greatly affect my ability/performance.
I did not see anything positive to take from the horseshoe reticle and when switching to an optic with a red dot illuminated in black crosshairs it worked out much better for me, and more intuitively. You experience may vary, of course, and if the horseshoe works well for you without requiring you to do any serious training to use that reticle effectively, then go for it.
As for glass quality, I have owned $3500 USO's and $200 vortex LPVO's, I can tell the difference but that is because I know exactly what I need to be looking for to tell the difference about. Will a $3500 USO work for you? Yeah probably. Will a $200 vortex probably do the same exact thing the USO for you, yeah I imagine it would.
I would try to get out of a paralysis by analysis type of situation and just buy one. If it ends up not working well for you after a good bit of use, take a hit, sell it, and buy a different one. We all go/went through this progression to figure out what we like and do not like, what we need and do not need.
Things your LPVO should absolutely have if it is going on a gun which may be used to shoot people - capped turrets and illumination of reticle/dot - if you want an optic for gaming, then it doesn't matter what it looks like or its qualities are, you aren't using it on people and PID is not something which needs to be considered in this case.
You should find what your particular requirements are, which for most are "true 1x" RDS-type setup for fast up close shooting and good magnification for distance PID, that's basically all of the LPVO's in the field right now, unless you want some kind of ballistic bullet drop reticle for some reason then you should find the one to match the ammo/barrel you are going to run. Make your choice, gain experience, sell as needed, rinse repeat.
Dr. Cornwallis
Regular Member
Pat, I have a Razor HD II with the JM 1 reticle in the mail right now. After playing with a buddies I was very impressed.
- Glass is absolutely phenomenal, best I’ve seen (including S&B)
- Reticle is good (not great)
- Very much daylight bright
- Eye box is good
My only complaint with the Razor is the reticle selection, I wish that they had a reticle with something more like the Kahles offerings. Aside from that, between having some experience with my buddies and having read nothing but good things about it, it was an easy choice.
The Kahles K16i was my first pick, however, being that I was able to pick up a Razor and Geissele 1.93 mount both for $700 less than the Kahles and the only place the Razor may fall somewhat short is the reticle, the choice was pretty easy.
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- Glass is absolutely phenomenal, best I’ve seen (including S&B)
- Reticle is good (not great)
- Very much daylight bright
- Eye box is good
My only complaint with the Razor is the reticle selection, I wish that they had a reticle with something more like the Kahles offerings. Aside from that, between having some experience with my buddies and having read nothing but good things about it, it was an easy choice.
The Kahles K16i was my first pick, however, being that I was able to pick up a Razor and Geissele 1.93 mount both for $700 less than the Kahles and the only place the Razor may fall somewhat short is the reticle, the choice was pretty easy.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk