Teaching the Drawstroke to a Newbie?

[hogarth]

Hi all,

I recently took a 3.5 hour class at a local indoor range, the sole purpose of which was to "certify me" at said range to be able to draw and shoot. This is a rare thing here in MD.

I wrote a little AAR/review of the class for a local website, and some armchair commandoes--and instructors no one has ever heard of--had a lot to say about some of the techniques taught. Their focus was on two things:

1. The four-count draw stroke
2. When drawing with strong hand, having the weak hand on the chest out of the way and ready to receive the strong hand with the gun.

Now, I've taken Covert Carry with Mike Pannone and taken handgun classes with Paul Howe, Steve Fisher, Tom Perroni, even Suarez International. I've also viewed a bunch of YouTube vids of Pannone, Kyle Lamb, Haley, Costa, etc., to get visual evidence of how they draw and fire.

Regarding #2 above, they all seem to do it, obviously with slight adjustments if going from concealed carry.
Regarding #1 above, is a four or five or whatever count draw stroke not almost universally taught?

The argument against #1 that some have been making is that it breaks down what should be one smooth motion into herky-jerky steps.

To me, the teaching of ANY athletic endeavor (running an out route in football, serving in tennis, power lifting, martial arts) ALWAYS breaks up a move into its requisite steps and then builds fluidity through repetition of MANY drills so that eventually the "corners" get rounded off, creating speed.

So am I nuts or are these people just talking trash?

 

[Dan Easterday]

Having just been to a course by some local talent covering this precise thing, I happen to fully support the 4 step instruction process. You cannot expect a person to become fully fluid in motion out of the gate, and by breaking it down, we can slow it down. I am no pro, but I am certainly not a newbie, and I took a lot away from repeated slow motion practice in front of others. I think it actually sped me up a little in live shooting.

I will leave number 2 to the experts.

I would like to read your article.

 

[nate89]

I'm interested in this as well. I do work part-time at a range were there are quite a few people looking for basic pistol instruction. The biggest issues we have run into is sweeping the off hand, getting fingers in the trigger guard prematurely, and gear that is garbage. Some thoughts from actual instructors would be welcome.

 

[hogarth]

Here's the thread so "enjoy". You'll realize right away who comes down on which side. "3rdRcn", "Kenpo", and "Whiskey" are all local, well-respected trainers and come down on "my side", if you will. "Blaster229" is with FAMS and "Proshooter" runs a school in Richmond, VA, and I schooled him in post 12, for whatever that's worth.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=170780

 

[Dan Easterday]

Oh boy, what a bunch of DERP (by the two guys you mentioned).

The two derps are obviously advocating point shooting because they are talking about coming up on a 45deg from the holster. Proper push out from center of chest allows aimed SIGHTED fire before gun is at full extension if necessary. The comment about unzipping the target from the navel up has me worried that he is relying on some form of indexing the pistol in relation to his body instead of looking through his sights. That, to me, is worrisome coming from someone is his position. Correct me if I am reading this wrong.

Regarding that avery video, there is a discussion here about that very thing with some excellent thoughts.

 

[hogarth]

I've not yet watched the Avery video because it won't work on my tablet. Will sample it later.

As for the point shooting, you are ON THE MONEY, because that same guy has voiced his positive opinions thereof on MANY occasions on that site, most especially after I had taken a force on force class and posted an AAR there.

Forgive my ignorance, but what's a derp?

 

[Dan Easterday]

Just a different way of saying "tard."

I refuse to believe that point shooting can coexist with the fundamental rule of "know your target, your backstop, and beyond."

I am no badass shot, but I can apply critical thinking and logic to just about any situation, and to me, point shooting just does not make sense. But, that's just me.

 

[ptrlcop]

I think that the 4 count is helpful for new shooters. I also think it is somewhat helpful for training new retention holsters or new carry positions. If I get a new retention holster I do hundreds of reps of step 1 by achieving a grip and defeating the retention device.

 

[Runcible]

Hogarth,

Are you asking us to defend your posts on the other forum, or address each point on its' own virtues or lackthereof? The way you have presented things right now comes across as seeking validation through the asking of close-ended questions, and if addressed as you have asked, would be with but a "yes" or a "no." Stripping away the cross-forum shenanigans, biographics, and back-and-forth; to condense to the two essential questions might yield you better results.

For example:
"1. Do you understand there to be benefit to deconstructing the drawstroke into graduated steps? Why? Is there a point when deconstructing the drawstroke becomes a detriment?"
2. What do you understand to be the optimal position or task of the support hand during the drawstroke? Why? With what ensemble was this opinion formed?"

There are people at that other forum who comported themselves poorly, expressed relevant concepts poorly, and did not articulate their critical consideration of material.

Posting in this forum in this manner, with distracting pejoratives and dimunitives, represents yourself poorly.

What is more important to you, from this discussion here?

 

[hogarth]

No, I am not seeking validation of MY beliefs. I want to know if I've been taught in some "outdated" or perhaps "less effective" manner.

I would not have posted the link to that thread if someone in this thread hadn't asked to read my review/AAR. If posting the link was "in poor taste" or whatever, then my apologies. It was done more for brevity's sake (I.e., that I don't type so well on a tablet or phone, which are the only things I have available to me right now).

In short, your questions are probably how I should have asked mine. I'm not losing sleep over some of the people on the other site, and since you now have that link, you will NOT see me running back there and saying, "but the people on this OTHER site said THIS!".

Does that make sense?

 

[Jackrabbit]

I agree with you. Seems like the 4-step draw stroke is a great way to introduce the skill, but once that foundation is laid, the student needs to start adding efficiency and speed to avoid that mechanical herky-jerky motion. Indexing the support hand on something keeps that hand from drifting around under critical stress, which I've seen happen in FoF classes.

 

[tacweapon]

Regarding #1 when I am helping to teach people new to shooting how to effectively draw from a holster we break it down into 4 steps as well. It helps the student process the information and memorize it and with time and more training we are able to smooth it out and remove the "stages" of the draw and turn it into a fluid motion.

#2 when I am helping to teach we also teach this, it helps to keep things safe while the student learns the steps of an efficient draw stroke and it can then be used with a layered approach of using that position to then teach some of the other skills or positions.

 

[Atlas]

I started on 4 point. I think its great to teach newbies. I think once you get a handle of things though you could have some one film you and your draw stroke under stress and that 4 point goes out the window and all you see is a blurred line roughly to the same body mechanics preformed in 4 stroke.

 

[kyler801]

I think the world of Defensive Handgun has gotten way too wrapped up in the Costa/Haley "Draw and Punch Out" method. Those guys do that sort of thing everytime because where are they performing said method? In a relatively stress free environment as an instructor on a range. If you see people in actual gun fights that method requires 2 extra steps that are border line fine motor skills as well as not a natural body response IMO. The draw stroke video with Range Time with Micluiek (however you spell his name) simplifies the drawstroke in to a trainable, consistent and extremely fast way of in simple terms of establishing a proper grip and raising the gun up in a point 'n' shoot manner. It's a method i practice everyday and it has been able to stick in my Brain. If the man who hit at a 1000 yds with a handgun -4sec than i think hes got the idea of a drawstroke right on. Retaining the pistol in to a high ready is just as easy from that position is just as easy as the draw and punch method as well. Just my 2 cents

 

[AresGear_Jake]

I disagree completely.

First, that's not a "Costa/Haley" technique, that's the standard, which is why they did it.

Second, Miculek's drawstroke, while faster from holster to full extension, is not faster for aimed fire. It relies on a combination of body position and habits.

Have you ever gone to an IPSC shoot? They're absolutely amazing...unless the shooter isn't PERFECTLY positioned, or the gun is SLIGHTLY off-position on the belt, etc. If a single thing is wrong, their lightning-fast 6 hits turns into 5 runs of 6 misses each time.

You're asking the right question, but you picked the wrong method; Miculek's is straight competition. I'll take the one that allows for sighted and discriminatory fire, thanks.


- Jake

 

[kyler801]

I could see that. I just use costa/haley as an example for people who arent familiar with the term 4point draw or whatever you want to call it. I still fall back on 4 point draw because acquisition of my sights seems to be strainghter than a "competition" draw stroke. (For some reason i naturally shoot 1"-3" low on my m&p) and i really like it for cqb/clearing buildings for the fact of i can retain my gun better, set up for clearing corners and situational awareness. It just doesnt work for me to be necessarily all shrugged up like they are unless im clearing a building or in a car. Otherwise if i see the target its a point and shoot kind of thing

 

[Rootbeer]

This is a pretty good discussion. I feel that there are a large majority of things that need to be taken into account when discussing pistol draw.

#1. Are you drawing from concealment?

#2. What is the environment you are in?

#3. How are you positioned in relation to the threat?

These are just some examples that popped into my head as I was reading through this thread. Everyone is going to have their own technique for getting the weapon out and on target as fast as possible. The 4 count method is a great way for beginners that have never really handled handguns to learn how to get their pistol out and into operation. If you were taught that method, you will most likely always refer to some technique similar, more rounded and efficient (hopefully, if you practice). The 4 count draw is a draw that is made to be safe, consistent and easy to break down. Once practiced it can be a great draw from an open carry position.

If you are in a car, you won't be able to exercise this draw (9/10) times. This is a very specific, square to target, open environment draw and technique. I completely understand we can what if this thing to death. It comes down to multiple "experts" "training" what they feel is the best method. You'll see other trainers teaching to side step as they draw "Get off the X" approach to pistol draw. You will notice most of them always step sideways, never diagonal front/back, always left or right. If you ever can subject yourself to watching Cory & Erika with Range Time, you will notice Cory (their lead instructor) is robotic in almost all his movements. He is still very fast, but robotic, which nullifies the "slow" argument about drawing.

I've seen people teach everything from extending your weak arm while stepping back to create distance between you and the threat to not drawing at all. I know that when I practice my draw (from appendix carry) very seldom to I practice my open carry draw techniques. I immediately orient the gun towards my target and as I am "punching out" my off hand will meet with the grip on the firearm. I honestly try not to involve my weak hand in the event it isn't available for use. I practice two types of concealed draw: Weak-hand clearing of garment, Strong-hand (thumb) only clearing of garment.

If this is strictly limited to open carry draw, than as John Goodman says to Steve Buscemi in The Big Lebowski, "I am out of my element." I think that Aaron Cowan with Sage Dynamics does a really good job of explaining and demonstrating various draws (from concealment) in some of his videos. I haven't had the chance to get to any of their training events. I tell people to find a technique that feels natural for them and work on that. If it doesn't feel good, it won't be good. Same mindset I apply to carrying a pistol. If it hurts, is heavy, annoying, etc., you won't carry it.

 

[Rootbeer]

I feel the need to also post that I in no way am a supporter of Range Time or Cory & Erika. I really can't stand behind someone who fakes/lies about their service.

 

[glenw247]

We use the 4 point draw for our new shooters. It is also good for review with experienced shooters who may be struggling. They usually seem to struggle when corners are being cut. Starts slow when learning. but when in a situation it came smooth and fast for me. So much that I was surprised.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tacweapon]

This might deserve a new topic and if so I apologize. When teaching the draw stroke what tips or techniques do you use to help newer students shoot with both eyes open ? Recently I have had a couple students struggle with this. They have not been able to train their eyes and brain to transpose the target and sights into 1 sight picture. They are seeing two different targets and one set of sights. Does anyone have any insight on this ?