My police department (~30 sworn personnel) recently transitioned from Mossberg 590s and Remington 870s to the KelTec KSG for duty use. Does anyone know of another LE agency that has done this? We’ve fired maybe 30 rounds through each of them, barely enough to stress test or be comfortable with them. Due to the current ammo shortage, I train with dummy rounds to practice loading, operating, etc. I’ve tried researching this, but have found no information from any other agency. I’m just a patrolman, and had no part in the decision making process. I’m concerned that we transitioned from proven, well-established platforms to one that doesn’t appear to be used in a duty role. Thanks.
KelTec KSG For LE Duty Use
- Thread starter ES_137
- Start date
So I confess I have had a half baked plan to try one out as a dedicated less lethal platform for a while now and in that limited role I’d probably be ok giving one a shot, I don’t know that I’d be as comfortable with one for actual killing stuff and people though. My limited experience with one seemed as though, like all things keltec it was pretty rough around the edges in terms of construction. I seem to remember someone here taking a Rob Haught shotgun class with one (maybe Mickfury) but don’t remember the outcome.
I pinged the best person to answer this - just waiting on him.
Bronson
Fury
I have the dubious honor of being someone that knows quite a bit about KSG’s and have run them through various training courses and T&E’s for adoption as a ballistic breaching platform. It did not receive a recommendation for that.
I don’t know of any actual LE agencies that issues them. I would not recommend any LE agency to do so. They are not a duty grade weapon system as they are not reliable enough.
A few questions for you, feel free to PM me if you don’t want to answer these on a public forum.
1. What is their intended use?
2. What ammunition is to be used with them?
3. Who is responsible for patterning ammunition with them?
4. What modifications (optics, lasers, etc) are authorized for them?
5. How are they being stored?
Kel-Tec should have sent an FSR to conduct an armorer’s course if this was a departmental purchase.
POSITIVES:
2. Modularity:
The KSG-12 has an aluminum top rail for attachment of SOPMOD accessories such as optics, lights, lasers. It has a shorter bottom rail as well.
3. Length:
Overall Length (OAL) is approximately the same as my Mossberg M500 in ballistic breaching configuration (pistol grip).
4. Safety: Safety is similar to M249/M240 MK48 weapon safeties. It is easy and intuitive to use and compliments the existing manual of arms. My principle is engaging the safety during reloading and prior to movement - this compliments it.
NEGATIVES:
1) Poor Materials / Composition For A Firearm
2) Decreased Life Cycle
With the subpar materials used, life cycle of the weapon system and parts is decreased. Another problem is that unlike the M4 FOW there is not a standard for periodic parts replacement at round count intervals.
3) Limited Spare Parts Commercially Available
There are a lack of spare parts commercially available. There are a few upgrades to parts that are COTS - but no dedicated spare parts or replacement packages.
4) No Armorer Support
This and #3 are mainly what killed our looking into the KSG-12 for adoption as a ballistic breaching platform. There are no Armorer Courses or Armorer Support for the platform anymore. The weapon system must be sent back to Kel-Tec which would leave the Ballistic Breacher without a materiel solution to accomplish his mission (or he'd revert to the M500, but training time is limited for initial & sustainment training to build proficiency.)
Operation (IOM):
Ammunition Capacity is 14+1 12 Gauge Shells. Two tubes hold 7 shells each. You can select via lever which tube will utilized / able to be loaded. The issue selector is small, there are larger aftermarket selectors available. Only one tube can be loaded at a time.
Loading: Loading the KSG-12 is difficult and time-consuming. Initially I turned the weapon system upside down to load during initial train-up and for Yeti's course. I've since transitioned to simply canting the weapon system 90 degrees pointing it downwards and going by feel. The reason I did this was because I needed a reloading system that would work in light, low light, no light, et al. If I have to load support hand I cant it 90 degrees the opposite direction.
You’re dead on about investing in dummy rounds and practicing loading drills. Shotguns are intensive with reloading drills, especially the KSG series.
Action: The action is not as smooth as the Remington 870 or Mossberg 500. I had a bit over 5% failure rate where I negligently short stroked the KSG-12 pump action. More training time to include dry practice and a grip stop have reduced this.
Loading: The KSG-12 is more amenable to loading via the Louis Awerbuck method of loading the tube first and then chambering a shell followed by feeding more shells into the tube.
Slug select drills are basically not happening. If you’re issued both slug and buck, best practice is to run your primary tube with buck and your secondary tube with slugs. Realize this also takes a lot of time to train to standard.
Malfunction Clearance: Immediate Action is easy to conduct. Remedial Action is more difficult compared to the Remington 870 & Mossberg M500. This is mostly due to difficulty in extracting shells by hand. Sometimes the shell will invert in the lifter and have to be manually guided around it to be orientated correctly.
Modularity: The KSG-12 offers decent modularity, though not as much as the M4 FOW. As issued, there is a top rail and and bottom rail.
I have a front iron sight, breaching light(s), white / IR light, IR/VIS laser, RDS on mine.
Mesa Tactical makes an aftermarket rail for them. Their regular rail is better (and has two attachment points on the side for Picatinny sections), the Sidesaddle Rail sticks out too far and negatively affects weapon weight and balance. I have breaching lights set up on the smaller Picatinny sections.
I recommend against QD mounts on the KSG-12 due to the increased recoil impulse which will toss accessories off it like a bull. Loctite is your ally.
The bottom Picatinny rail is plastic, not aluminum. As such, it is not as effective as an aluminum rail and will have increased rate of equipment loss due to this and recoil impulse. I recommend a COTS aluminum bottom rail to replace it.
I have a kydex cheek piece that fits over the stock which has Velcro on it for an Esstac shotgun card. The card can be pulled off when empty and replaced with another.
Maintenance (IOM):
As stated, -10 Level Maintenance is practically nonexistent unless you need to replace issue parts with parts that available aftermarket.
Limited spare parts commercially available (see: https://www.keltecweapons.com/collections/parts/ksg-series/ ), no Armorer Courses, no Armorer Support. Weapon systems must be sent back to Kel-Tec for repair.
Hope this helps. Sorry if this is disjointed, I’m copying / pasting stuff from previous talks about this gun.
________________________________________
I can film some techniques (loading, weapon manipulation) if it will help ya’ll out.
If your department is looking to have someone come down and conduct a training course for them, I’ll do so for free (I’d ask to have ya’ll cover flight / lodging / transpo but tuition is free). I hate seeing good guys saddled with bad equipment, but I know what it’s like to make do with what ya got.
I don’t know of any actual LE agencies that issues them. I would not recommend any LE agency to do so. They are not a duty grade weapon system as they are not reliable enough.
A few questions for you, feel free to PM me if you don’t want to answer these on a public forum.
1. What is their intended use?
2. What ammunition is to be used with them?
3. Who is responsible for patterning ammunition with them?
4. What modifications (optics, lasers, etc) are authorized for them?
5. How are they being stored?
Kel-Tec should have sent an FSR to conduct an armorer’s course if this was a departmental purchase.
POSITIVES:
- Ammunition Capacity:
2. Modularity:
The KSG-12 has an aluminum top rail for attachment of SOPMOD accessories such as optics, lights, lasers. It has a shorter bottom rail as well.
3. Length:
Overall Length (OAL) is approximately the same as my Mossberg M500 in ballistic breaching configuration (pistol grip).
4. Safety: Safety is similar to M249/M240 MK48 weapon safeties. It is easy and intuitive to use and compliments the existing manual of arms. My principle is engaging the safety during reloading and prior to movement - this compliments it.
NEGATIVES:
1) Poor Materials / Composition For A Firearm
2) Decreased Life Cycle
With the subpar materials used, life cycle of the weapon system and parts is decreased. Another problem is that unlike the M4 FOW there is not a standard for periodic parts replacement at round count intervals.
3) Limited Spare Parts Commercially Available
There are a lack of spare parts commercially available. There are a few upgrades to parts that are COTS - but no dedicated spare parts or replacement packages.
4) No Armorer Support
This and #3 are mainly what killed our looking into the KSG-12 for adoption as a ballistic breaching platform. There are no Armorer Courses or Armorer Support for the platform anymore. The weapon system must be sent back to Kel-Tec which would leave the Ballistic Breacher without a materiel solution to accomplish his mission (or he'd revert to the M500, but training time is limited for initial & sustainment training to build proficiency.)
Operation (IOM):
Ammunition Capacity is 14+1 12 Gauge Shells. Two tubes hold 7 shells each. You can select via lever which tube will utilized / able to be loaded. The issue selector is small, there are larger aftermarket selectors available. Only one tube can be loaded at a time.
Loading: Loading the KSG-12 is difficult and time-consuming. Initially I turned the weapon system upside down to load during initial train-up and for Yeti's course. I've since transitioned to simply canting the weapon system 90 degrees pointing it downwards and going by feel. The reason I did this was because I needed a reloading system that would work in light, low light, no light, et al. If I have to load support hand I cant it 90 degrees the opposite direction.
You’re dead on about investing in dummy rounds and practicing loading drills. Shotguns are intensive with reloading drills, especially the KSG series.
Action: The action is not as smooth as the Remington 870 or Mossberg 500. I had a bit over 5% failure rate where I negligently short stroked the KSG-12 pump action. More training time to include dry practice and a grip stop have reduced this.
Loading: The KSG-12 is more amenable to loading via the Louis Awerbuck method of loading the tube first and then chambering a shell followed by feeding more shells into the tube.
Slug select drills are basically not happening. If you’re issued both slug and buck, best practice is to run your primary tube with buck and your secondary tube with slugs. Realize this also takes a lot of time to train to standard.
Malfunction Clearance: Immediate Action is easy to conduct. Remedial Action is more difficult compared to the Remington 870 & Mossberg M500. This is mostly due to difficulty in extracting shells by hand. Sometimes the shell will invert in the lifter and have to be manually guided around it to be orientated correctly.
Modularity: The KSG-12 offers decent modularity, though not as much as the M4 FOW. As issued, there is a top rail and and bottom rail.
I have a front iron sight, breaching light(s), white / IR light, IR/VIS laser, RDS on mine.
Mesa Tactical makes an aftermarket rail for them. Their regular rail is better (and has two attachment points on the side for Picatinny sections), the Sidesaddle Rail sticks out too far and negatively affects weapon weight and balance. I have breaching lights set up on the smaller Picatinny sections.
I recommend against QD mounts on the KSG-12 due to the increased recoil impulse which will toss accessories off it like a bull. Loctite is your ally.
The bottom Picatinny rail is plastic, not aluminum. As such, it is not as effective as an aluminum rail and will have increased rate of equipment loss due to this and recoil impulse. I recommend a COTS aluminum bottom rail to replace it.
I have a kydex cheek piece that fits over the stock which has Velcro on it for an Esstac shotgun card. The card can be pulled off when empty and replaced with another.
Maintenance (IOM):
As stated, -10 Level Maintenance is practically nonexistent unless you need to replace issue parts with parts that available aftermarket.
Limited spare parts commercially available (see: https://www.keltecweapons.com/collections/parts/ksg-series/ ), no Armorer Courses, no Armorer Support. Weapon systems must be sent back to Kel-Tec for repair.
Hope this helps. Sorry if this is disjointed, I’m copying / pasting stuff from previous talks about this gun.
________________________________________
I can film some techniques (loading, weapon manipulation) if it will help ya’ll out.
If your department is looking to have someone come down and conduct a training course for them, I’ll do so for free (I’d ask to have ya’ll cover flight / lodging / transpo but tuition is free). I hate seeing good guys saddled with bad equipment, but I know what it’s like to make do with what ya got.
I appreciate the information. I’ll PM you with the answers to those questions this afternoon.
Thanks!
PAGING TIM CHANDLER...
I ran my KSG through Tim Chandler’s Home Defense Shotgun. Not a fast paced class, and not a ton of manipulation of the weapon as it is An entry level course. Myself and the other person in the class with KSGs had to bum loaner guns to get through the course. I’d put a probably 200 rounds through the gun, maybe less, and never had an issue. Both guns failed to run in class.
The instructors both saw KSGs and both made the “OMG” face. I sold the KSG immediately after class to purchase a 1301 Tactical and Remington 870.
I would NOT trust my life to a KSG, and most people I know who know shotguns strongly recommend avoiding them.
YMMV
Barry
I ran my KSG through Tim Chandler’s Home Defense Shotgun. Not a fast paced class, and not a ton of manipulation of the weapon as it is An entry level course. Myself and the other person in the class with KSGs had to bum loaner guns to get through the course. I’d put a probably 200 rounds through the gun, maybe less, and never had an issue. Both guns failed to run in class.
The instructors both saw KSGs and both made the “OMG” face. I sold the KSG immediately after class to purchase a 1301 Tactical and Remington 870.
I would NOT trust my life to a KSG, and most people I know who know shotguns strongly recommend avoiding them.
YMMV
Barry
GearFondler
Amateur
I saw the other day that GrabaGun had the KSG listed for $1,200. I could only shake my head at where we're at right now... $300 more than I paid for my 1301T.
After our department swapped over to KSGs, we had the option to purchase our old shotguns. I bought my M590A1 in a hurry, and I'd still be carrying it at work if I had the option.