LPVO on home defense AR?

Brap&Bang

Amateur
A SME made the case that LPVOs aren’t just for duty guns and that a home defense carbine should be running LPVOs.

LPVOs provide magnification which helps with precision shots and target identification, while still being very nearly as fast and forgiving as a dot.

I have a hard time coming up with a situation in which I would be justified in a self defense engagement that would be at distance which benefits from the aid of magnification for PID and/or precision shot placement.

I’m hesitant to give up the speed/familiarity of the dot and pay for a premium LPVO.
Seems like I’m missing something? Should I be jumping on the LPVO train?


Details:
Current HD gun is a 16” BCM in 5.56 with RMR and white light.
The furthest distance I can see from my house on my property is 300 meters.
I live in a rural area and law enforcement response times are proabably around 1/2 to 1 hour ( maybe >2 hours in the evening)
 

ggammell

Does not pass up an opportunity to criticize P&S.
You won’t lose speed going from an RMR’s tiny window to the big window of a good LPVO. It was an instantaneous change for me. Practice a bit and you’ll have the hang of it.

Check one out. Once you see for yourself you can make the best decision.
 

pointblank4445

Established
"HD" or "Home Defense" brings to mind the double-barrel hanging over a door or the long gun collecting dust in corner of a bedroom closet. Is it not likely you could be removed from your permanent residence (natural disaster for example) and require a rifle outside the confines of the home?

I've not run an RMR on a rifle, but in using them for other applications, I've not found them to be nearly as forgiving as an Aimpoint or Eotech in terms of distortion. No worse than the old 1.1x of older LPVO's in my eye at least. You may find that a Razor HD or Kahles to be quicker/more forgiving by chance. And who's to say you couldn't piggy back that RMR and have both at your disposal?

All LPVO's I've had that are Aimpoint/daylight bright SUCK batteries dry compared to a traditional red dot. However, you'll never be left with an empty window if the battery dies...you should have some sort of reticle (especially of SFP on low power). Just something to think about when you consider that "bump in the night" type scenario.

I like how it got put in an older podcast. We had it ass-backward at one time. It seems now that the red dot is a necessary, but niche' optic when now the LPVO is more the universal tool.
 

tylerw02

Regular Member
I’ve done side by side comparison between Aimpoint and a Razor 1-6x from low ready to A-zone at the yards.

With either optic, I’m in the 0.46-0.48 time average over twenty runs. That’s about a perfect storm for the red dot to be exploited.

However, the advantages for the Razor are much more lob-sided, especially when it ext new beyond 100 yards.

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Brap&Bang

Amateur
Is it not likely you could be removed from your permanent residence (natural disaster for example) and require a rifle outside the confines of the home?
Thats a valid point. I'll think about that. Thanks.


I like how it got put in an older podcast. We had it ass-backward at one time. It seems now that the red dot is a necessary, but niche' optic when now the LPVO is more the universal tool.
Yup that is why I'm asking. My introduction to M4/AR15 platform was in the early 2000s in Army infantry. Red dots were everywhere and the ACOG was for the SDM. I'm trying to stay abreast of current carbine set up so I don't turn into that grizzled old vietnam vet who still uses iron sights that "work for me"...
 

ggammell

Does not pass up an opportunity to criticize P&S.
A good LPVO will give you the same capabilities as your red dot. It will also give you the ability to have better visibility at distance or precision at small/obstructed targets up close.
 

pointblank4445

Established
Even though I hold P&S people to a higher standard, I think we should caveat that the "speed" is dependent upon level of training and how consistently one gets behind the rifle. If you mount the gun and are hunting for the dot on a RDS...you got some work to do. Let's just say that the potential exists to be as fast in ready-up and similar skill drills with an LPVO.

More random thoughts...

In practicing alternate positions and maybe weak-side transitions, I'm going to give it to my Aimpoint when under the clock when a less-than perfect head position isn't a gimme. Manageable in most cases with an LPVO with practice but something to note given the eye box and eye relief factor.

Skill aside, I think there is something to be said for how a 20-24oz optic package can alter weapon balance vs a 5-6oz optic package.

And just for fun, I dug back to some old optic stuff.
I explain the use of varying levels of magnification I've used and some reticle considerations:
https://primaryandsecondary.com/for...-first-vs-second-focal-plane.4654/#post-29036

A link to Pressburg's talk on LPVO's and Red dots (some points already noted in this thread) and a couple of cases where LPVO did me a solid inside 50y:
https://primaryandsecondary.com/forum/index.php?threads/modern-patrol-rifle.3593/page-4#post-34618
 

user12358

Regular Member
@pointblank4445 does a good job of bringing back in expectations and I think there certainly needs to be more nuance than "LPVOs can do everything that red dots can do plus more" because that just isn't so. First, there is a marked difference between what an FFP LPVO and an SFP LPVO can do in compromised CQB positions or with gear that makes it harder to consistently mount the optic like you would normally do such as gas masks and weak side helmet buckles. An LPVO isn't just an LPVO in the sense that you are just choosing the size, weight, and what battery it takes like with various Aimpoints or EoTechs.

When you trade out your red dot for a quality CQB LPVO (Razor, K16i, etc) you are gaining a significant amount of PID at range and making longer range and more precise shots much easier. You are trading off increased cost (which can be worked around or isn't a concern depending on budget or unit), increased weight (even the lightest setups are going to be double the weight of a red dot setup), and the one area where LPVOs completely fall behind red dots in terms of capability is passive NOD use. If money is not a primary concern, another pound of weight near the center of gravity doesn't bother you, and you don't use NODs passively then there is only upside to you transitioning to a quality SFP LPVO that will allow you to gather far more information at varying ranges than a red dot while keeping pace up close. However, if you don't check all those boxes then the LPVO might not be your answer.
 

Brap&Bang

Amateur
The extra weight and the fact that a LPVO has an eye box don’t bother me, but sometimes I’m not home and it may be an issue for my wife. I’ve ordered a LPVO for my competition AR and I’ll see what both I and the wife think.

Thank you for your thoughtful responses.
 

Mike_IA

Regular Member
So I run LVPOs and dots at work and for various personal reasons (bedside, competition, hunting).

Good LVPOs bring range and PID capability to the table. It takes work to stay on top of eyebox in compromised positions. One under stated benefit of running an LVPO on a defensive carbine is the user will be more apt to use it and practice with it more readily, so you will be very familiar and competent with that gun.

The down side is you can’t always have the dot on. Why does that matter? There are times and techniques for “shooting from the black” as in not activating a weapon light to take a shot, using ambient light or a buddy’s light to illuminate a target. If you have your house and property set up with back lighting, it is absolutely possible to safely shoot from the black (legality will vary regionally so consult a responsible use of force expert or legal team)- increasing your safety and providing what maybe a decisive advantage in a dangerous scenario. A red dot with aimpoint like battery life may be a better choice, in that instance.

I have used LVPOs, EOTechs, aimpoints, and lasers on bedside guns at different times. I am a big believer of using the right optic with the right gun for the right mission set.

Could an LVPO work? Sure, but is adds complexity and brings limitations. If you know it and are willing to put in the work and work with and around the limitations, rock on.
 

Brap&Bang

Amateur
That’s a good point about “shooting for the black.” We have our hallway and living room lights set up on a remote switch so we can turn them on from the bedroom and stay in a dark room while any intruder would be in a brightly lit room. So having a red dot is also a benefit in that scenario.

Thanks for providing more to think about.
 

tylerw02

Regular Member
I’m not sure I buy into complexities in an HD role.

You just use the right model.

I’d avoid FFP and the reticle shouldn’t be so fine as to rely on illumination by necessity.

You place it on 1X. The reticle allows battery-free operation. It won’t magically jump in magnification. It won’t wash out. Honestly, they are simple. Very simple.


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Mike_IA

Regular Member
So managing an eyebox and head positioning while you are bleary eyed and tired, or scared out of your mind isn’t hard , but not red dot simple either.

Scopes don’t change magnification but people sure do forget to put them back on 1x or turn them off. I have seen plenty of gunners forget to zero out turrets after a day or a stage for precision rifles; I have also seen just as meany leave illum on or leave magnification on a scopes (LVPOs included). And yes using a weapon mounted light allows using a non-illuminated reticle but red dots have tactical as well as speed benefits.

I said you can do it, I have but it takes more work, effort, and there are limitations- know them and manage them.

There is also anecdotal evidence of professionals working rooms and working at night overwhelmingly choose red dots for reasons too.
 
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pointblank4445

Established
I’m not sure I buy into complexities in an HD role.

To expound on my initial sentiments...what does "HD" mean to you? IF all it means is that if/when you hear that "bump in the night", you barricade up and punish anything that comes through that fatal funnel...perhaps you are right. I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all answer.

The pro's and con's of both the RDS and LPVO have been laid out very well here...and a bit beyond for HD (as I'm hoping a home defense scenario doesn't depend on passive NV aiming and gas masks). There's no free lunch or perfect answer.

If you're happy with your choice, have trained with it and allowed for contingencies...rock on.
 

tylerw02

Regular Member
So managing an eyebox and head positioning while you are bleary eyed and tired, or scared out of your mind isn’t hard , but not red dot simple either.

Scopes don’t change magnification but people sure do forget to put them back on 1x or turn them off. I have seen plenty of gunners forget to zero out turrets after a day or a stage for precision rifles; I have also seen just as meany leave illum on or leave magnification on a scopes (LVPOs included). And yes using a weapon mounted light allows using a non-illuminated reticle but red dots have tactical as well as speed benefits.

I said you can do it, I have but it takes more work, effort, and there are limitations- know them and manage them.

There is also anecdotal evidence of professionals working rooms and working at night overwhelmingly choose red dots for reasons too.

There really isn’t a speed advantage to the red dot sight.

There are scopes with automatic illumination if you think that’s going to be an issue. People also forget to turn on/off RDSes. People also misinterpret the level of illumination they will need.

Bro sure zeroing turrets will have anything to do with this application.

If we are using incompetence as a shooter in managing our own equipment as a reason to not choose a tool, perhaps red dots would also be checked off for many of the same reasons.

There are so many professionals choosing variables for the same roles. It’s what it is, a choice. Choose between a perceived speed benefit (which I’ll argue doesn’t exist after I learned what I was doing with one) and the many advantages offered by the LPVO.

Sure, for home defense there are only a few advantages the LPVO brings to the table, but in nearly every other situation the dot is a major disadvantage.

If you can have only one AR and optic, it should be a quality LPVO if you’re doing anything over 100 yards.



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pointblank4445

Established
Sure, for home defense there are only a few advantages the LPVO brings to the table, but....

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Look at the thread title again. Most of us are speaking in that context of the OP's inquiry. Select the right tool for the job...your job, training, tactics, AO, experience will reflect selection differently.

And my comments are coming from someone who has tried MULTIPLE times to rid myself of red dots....keep coming back and having one in the stable.
 

tylerw02

Regular Member
Sure, for home defense there are only a few advantages the LPVO brings to the table, but....

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Look at the thread title again. Most of us are speaking in that context of the OP's inquiry. Select the right tool for the job...your job, training, tactics, AO, experience will reflect selection differently.

And my comments are coming from someone who has tried MULTIPLE times to rid myself of red dots....keep coming back and having one in the stable.

I read the title and the post. Thanks. And you already stated that there are different selections for different people. We all get that, and we are here to discuss the nuisances. Let’s stick to that.

OP wants to know what he’s missing if anything based on SME opinions.


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John_ACT

Newbie
The LVPO can and does work well for a general purpose rifle. The main thing to look into is that the optic have as near a true 1x as possible.
 
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