Raw plates, soft armor backing or padded plate backer

First things first, I'll note that I'm a civi with no prior mil/LE experience. I've recently started to become more focused on developing firearm skills, focusing mainly on dryfire drills and some personal range time. I've got some training kicking off early next year at Sig to really help build up more fundamentals and have been spending some time with some local "guys in the know". I say all that so it's clear I'm focusing on more than just instagram fandom or pretend soldier stuff.

With a lot of the recent news and chances going on in politics, which I won't start off here, I've invested in some Hesco 3410 (level 3+ stand alone) plates and LV119 covert carrier. I just pulled the trigger on everything today for the black Friday deals so I haven't received anything yet. That said, I'm wondering what everyone thinks for a backer for my particular use should be, or if I need one. From my understanding plates are not the most comfortable things to wear, especially for extended periods of time. The plates I got were budget minded so are a single curve shooters cut. I'm not wearing them daily until the world falls apart so I'm less concerned with any sort of daily wear, mostly 1/2 day training classes.

I see a lot of people run soft armor backing for additional protection, however I think for whatever I'd be facing it may be overkill. The first spear padded plate backer seems solid, although I'd guess it's going to add a fair amount of bulk to the carrier. Should I just run the plates raw for a bit? Is there another options outside the FS product and the soft armor I should consider? I'm not sure how much it matters but I'm 6'1" 185lbs and on the gumby side of athletic.
 

Wake27

Regular Member
Soft armor backers are for non-standalone plates, otherwise known as ICW (in conjunction with) plates. I wouldn’t think that it’d make your plates less effective, but I wouldn’t spend the money on soft armor if you already bought standalone plates.


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HighTower

Regular Member
Need of plate backers is no as plate you have bought are stand alone.

However, an aditional layer to absorb the energy might be of subjective value.

If you were wearing a MBAV or BALCS type rig is suggest the panels but an LV is for plates only, big picture threats, not saying pistol rounds are not a threat, but in getting a PC that threat decision has already been made.
 

Grayman

Established
I would run the plates without and backers and see how they feel. Remember no plates are comfortable after a few hours... if they are unbearable I’d look at something like the first spear padded backers.

I would not put soft armor behind stand alone plates in that carrier. It will offer no additional ballistic protection and minimal additional padding
 

CD228

Amateur
Put down the credit card for now. look up how to properly wear the armor, that will help you adjust your carrier so that the plate covers the important parts. A lot of folks wear their armor wrong, even ones who should know better. Once you have it properly adjusted, start wearing it to get used to it. You'll find the big issue from wearing the armor will be heat, as the plates will trap a lot of it. What you wear under the could be important for heat/sweat management. You'll also find your hot spots, for example my hot spot when I wear my IOTV is my left shoulder. I have to remember to remove my dog tags or that should gets an interesting tingle (it could be from an old injury). But, don't worry about mine, find yours. Once you find your hot spots then look and see what you can do to mitigate them. May sure to get some range time with your rig, you may find you need to shorted the LOP for your rifle IOT get a good cheek weld or proper eye relief for your optics. Don't forget your pistol and practicing your draws. I've found the some folks will set up their rig in such a way that it could impede a pistol draw. Also, remember to up your water intake when wearing plates for an extend time in hot weather.
 
Thanks all, appreciate all the feedback here. My plan was to just run the plates raw and then adjust as necessary, but I figured I would check if there was some understanding that you always wore some sort of backer with plates.

Appreciate that soft armor backers are not required for stand alone plates, but the feedback that it doesn't offer additional protection strikes me as odd. Is there more information on this? My guess here would be that anything that can rip through the ceramic plate can surely rip through the soft armor, and thus that is why. That said I would wonder if it could not offer some additional protection for threats that are maybe borderline. Not challenging here, just wanting to build my knowledge base.

@CD228 All solid feedback, I've seen a few videos on YT about how to setup your PC and where your plates should sit, if there is any specific recommendations there, or things I should avoid from listening to the influencer crowd, please point me in the right direction.
 

HighTower

Regular Member
Thanks all, appreciate all the feedback here. My plan was to just run the plates raw and then adjust as necessary, but I figured I would check if there was some understanding that you always wore some sort of backer with plates.

Appreciate that soft armor backers are not required for stand alone plates, but the feedback that it doesn't offer additional protection strikes me as odd. Is there more information on this? My guess here would be that anything that can rip through the ceramic plate can surely rip through the soft armor, and thus that is why. That said I would wonder if it could not offer some additional protection for threats that are maybe borderline. Not challenging here, just wanting to build my knowledge base.

@CD228 All solid feedback, I've seen a few videos on YT about how to setup your PC and where your plates should sit, if there is any specific recommendations there, or things I should avoid from listening to the influencer crowd, please point me in the right direction.
Sending you a PM to explain the soft armor position!
 

CD228

Amateur
@CD228 All solid feedback, I've seen a few videos on YT about how to setup your PC and where your plates should sit, if there is any specific recommendations there, or things I should avoid from listening to the influencer crowd, please point me in the right direction.
There was a post on lightfighter that had a good diagram, but I can't find it anymore. It showed specific physical land marks for proper plat coverage. Sorry for being vague, but I don't want to give you bad data.

As for who to listen to, I pay attention to Dr Roberts, the folks from AT armor and the folks from Velocity Systems. I think the P&S team has done some things on body armor as well and they do a good job of vetting their experts.
 

HighTower

Regular Member
I too am curious.

"Good morning!

So here is the thing, anything that can you through your plate will not be stopped by anything behind it. However, if your plate stops the round, the energy is still going forward and will be absorbes by what ever is behind the plate, so soft armor or truma padding will absorb more of that energy.

I was burned out last night so my presence of mind to better explain was lost.

Hope that helps! Any other questions?

R/S
H.T."
 

HighTower

Regular Member
"Good morning!

So here is the thing, anything that can you through your plate will not be stopped by anything behind it. However, if your plate stops the round, the energy is still going forward and will be absorbes by what ever is behind the plate, so soft armor or truma padding will absorb more of that energy.

I was burned out last night so my presence of mind to better explain was lost.

Hope that helps! Any other questions?

R/S
H.T."
Kind of like a car crash, vehicle hits vehicle, passenger hits air bag, organs hit muscles, so its there is an object argument to putting something behind a plate to take the BFD, but the objective value to that is situational as all get out. Hope that explains the logic.
 

jwr_patriot

Amateur
I too am curious.

"Good morning!

So here is the thing, anything that can you through your plate will not be stopped by anything behind it. However, if your plate stops the round, the energy is still going forward and will be absorbes by what ever is behind the plate, so soft armor or truma padding will absorb more of that energy.

I was burned out last night so my presence of mind to better explain was lost.

Hope that helps! Any other questions?

R/S
H.T."

Makes total sense. Here’s a follow up question: comfort aside and just talking ballistic protection wise... What about soft armor in front of a plate? I am looking to become a LEO and I know I will be issues soft armor, but the department I got a conditional offer from just got approved for outer carriers, making it easier to throw a plate in with the soft armor. Thoughts on soft armor in front of vs behind plate?


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HighTower

Regular Member
There is only one logical reason to put soft infront of hard plates...

Soft in the U.S. "only" goes to .44, via nij IIIa, the next step up is III, which is m80 ball, and IV that is M2AP.

As in this photo, this is a SAPI plate, it is an in con junct with plate. (ICW)

To it's left is a plate backer. Key word, back in backer. The text states that plate is infront.

Now, in a seperate issue to protection from direct rounds, a Spall Liner is a pouch of some ballistic rated fabric that surrounds steel plates. This is to catch fragments of the defeated round and plate from going in a dome like spread reverse of the plate, which could be your chin, arms or some one else.

Find dr.moregear's page, he does a good breakdown of all armor types.
 

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JB1

Newbie
Viking, in what type of scenario do you intend on utilizing armor? If your primary concern is home defense or a similar situation, you would be much better served getting quality soft armor, ideally III-A. Unless there are factors unique to your area, you are significantly more likely to face a threat armed with a pistol than a rifle. There are many areas not covered by rifle plates where you could sustain a life threatening injury from a pistol round. If you want to be very well prepared, get a plate carrier that integrates plates over soft armor. I personally have used a velocity systems operator assault vest with III-A soft and “3+” rifle plates and it’s served me well, however I’m using it for something with a higher risk level so my needs were / are different than yours.

Most importantly, understand that armor levels are not sequential. Level 4 plates are not tested against level 3 threats unless it is labeled as level 3 & 4. Also, rifle plates are generally not tested against pistol rounds.
 

HighTower

Regular Member
what’s your source for that statement?
Logic in the case that something that defeats (enough energy to go right beyond the plate) a plate is not going to care about NIJ iiia 99% of the time. Defeat being the key word, not a partial penatration. Which in that case soft armor *might* save you.

There is a video about the m4 sherman and hillbilly armor applications, the designers and mechs who worked and audited the damage in after action reports and BDAs stated that extra armor in the case of spare treads did nothing to stop the AP threats sent their way and only caused worse gas mileage and more maint requirements. (Ome of cheiftan talks)

This is not to be confused for III SA/IV ICW dual rated plates. A SAPI with a backer is only III, two backers will not stop IV threats, hence why E Sapis have more ceramic/harder ceramic vs a SAPI.

If the solution was that simple/cheap a 300$ SAPI would only need 200$ worth of IIIa to match an E sapi, we which is aprox. 600$
DARPA would award me for the greatest saver of tax dollars for the idea. But as we see with plates beyond E Sapis, like AA4+ plates at over a grand each, same amount by cost of Kevlar or dyeema is just not going to stop an m99X level round. (Light anti vic in 308 and 5.56)

All that said, there are anecdotal stories of rounds being stopped by books and badges, but if a SARVIP plate does not stop what hits it, the aluminum helocopter and everything inside behind said defeated/compromised plate is going to get shot through like swiss cheese.

There is only three outcomes when a plate gets hit. Plate wins, round stopped. Round goes half into plate. Round goes through plate. With minor small arms the second scenario, the extra soft armor might save you, but once the energy transfer gets high enough, the impact of the energy through the plate is going to cause internal organ damage.

@V. Berlioz, can you fill in anything i missed?
 

JB1

Newbie
Logic in the case that something that defeats (enough energy to go right beyond the plate) a plate is not going to care about NIJ iiia 99% of the time. Defeat being the key word, not a partial penatration. Which in that case soft armor *might* save you.

There is a video about the m4 sherman and hillbilly armor applications, the designers and mechs who worked and audited the damage in after action reports and BDAs stated that extra armor in the case of spare treads did nothing to stop the AP threats sent their way and only caused worse gas mileage and more maint requirements. (Ome of cheiftan talks)

This is not to be confused for III SA/IV ICW dual rated plates. A SAPI with a backer is only III, two backers will not stop IV threats, hence why E Sapis have more ceramic/harder ceramic vs a SAPI.

If the solution was that simple/cheap a 300$ SAPI would only need 200$ worth of IIIa to match an E sapi, we which is aprox. 600$
DARPA would award me for the greatest saver of tax dollars for the idea. But as we see with plates beyond E Sapis, like AA4+ plates at over a grand each, same amount by cost of Kevlar or dyeema is just not going to stop an m99X level round. (Light anti vic in 308 and 5.56)

All that said, there are anecdotal stories of rounds being stopped by books and badges, but if a SARVIP plate does not stop what hits it, the aluminum helocopter and everything inside behind said defeated/compromised plate is going to get shot through like swiss cheese.

There is only three outcomes when a plate gets hit. Plate wins, round stopped. Round goes half into plate. Round goes through plate. With minor small arms the second scenario, the extra soft armor might save you, but once the energy transfer gets high enough, the impact of the energy through the plate is going to cause internal organ damage.

@V. Berlioz, can you fill in anything i missed?

I’m not sure the idea presented (that a rifle plate would stop anything soft armor backer would stop) is correct.
 

Grayman

Established
So if I'm tracking correctly the OP has already purchased plates and a carrier. Quality choices on both fronts so no need to change anything there...

Yes as mentioned spend time with your gear learn how to wear it correctly. From actually wearing your kit during use you will learn what you want to change. Most people will change / update their gear multiple times before they find the "magic recipe."

As for the protection levels discussion you have to understand that there is a ridiculous amount of science behind it. You can get into the weeds as far or further than ballistics nerds get with load development. The easiest way to understand protection levels is to know where the ratings come from. As was mentioned there is a standardized testing protocol against which armor is tested and classified. Basically each piece of armor is tested in a laboratory setting against a very specific threat or threats. These are known as the NIJ standards. You can look them up online to see exactly what each rating means but be ready to fall asleep they're a perfect storm of sciency legalease. What you should take away from this is that they are only tested against the specific threats listed for that rating. Although commonly misunderstood it's not a complicated concept. If you buy a lvl IV rifle plate (tested against a single round of completely unobtainium 30.06 armor piercing) it might in theory stop lesser threats I.e. 5.56. BUT and that's a big BUT this isn't guaranteed! People confuse this all the time and the misconception gets perpetuated all over the internet.

You could put a soft armor backer behind your plate and it might stop some threat your plate isn't rated for... But you could also walk out your front door and be murdered by ravenous sloth. The truth of the matter is that's you have not idea what the backer will do as far as protection goes. Might it help? Yes most likely it will do something. At the very least is should help a little with Back face deformation but again there's no way to say how much. There are a couple certainties, a plate backer will add weight and dig into your training budget. I always fall back on a couple concepts that have never steered me wrong: ounces = pounds and pounds = pain. This is never more true than when you're wearing the additional weight during strenuous physical activity. Save your money, save the weight and go train more!
 
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