Back Up Irons

[Longinvs]

For clarification up front I'm not saying that back up irons are dumb or pointless.They're light, it doesn't hurt to have them on the gun. But! Does anyone have a verified story about someone needing to use their back ups? When duty grade red dots have a battery life of 3-8 years and survive house fires and IEDs, and your magnified optics can handle most of the same, I haven't run across the dude that has the "so there I was in the 'stan when my RCO was melted off my gun by a phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range and I had to flip up my rear sight to stay in the fight" story. I mean maybe if you had an Eotech on a scar?

 

[Ryan St.Jean]

I’ve never heard of a guy transitioning to them in a fight on the .mil side. Our ACOGs and Aimpoints are pretty rugged though.

A second order benefit I have personally seen to BUIS is when we start fiddling around with optics/ mounts the rifle isn’t deadlined. Without iron sights it would be down till you replace/ swap out the new part and get it zeroed. With BUIS just roll with the iron sights on your HD gun for a couple weeks or whatever.

 

[jBravo3]

Well, since you asked, and since you already said the E word, I'll add my little anecdote. The pd I work for issues Eotechs and, while I hate to be disparaging, they've been pretty awful. To be fair, the stated mfg date is 2013 and they live rough lives in dirty, dusty, hot/cold extremes, but I can't recall a single incident I've been on in the last five years where there's been more than one rifle pulled out of a patrol vehicle and at least one set of BUIS hasn't been flipped up because an Eotech was dead. Granted, it's a win if most patrol cops keep a charge/good batteries in their handheld lights and weapon lights, let alone their rifle optic, but the battery life in these things just sucks. I'm pushing for an upgrade, but in the meantime, good thing we've got irons.

 

[Kain]

I have a friend, who should be on here, whether he posts is different, who was in Iraq 2008-2009 time frame. He related a story to me while on a patrol having his Eotech shit the bed. Wasn't dead batteries since they had been changed that day, but the optic shit the bed so he was rolling around with his matech rear up. Now, he didn't end up having to shoot at anyone, but yeah, the point is there. So yeah, he for a long time was big on BUIS, and anti Eotech. In fact I am pretty sure he still is heavy anti eotech. So there is at least that. Now, i think with the rise of your LPVOs, some may argue that standard BUIS kind of become useless, and I am not sure I'd disgree, since most QD mounts, really aren't, not if you have them mounted right, My experience with Larue mounts for example, while they might be "Quick Detach" if they are torqued down proper, you have to get a damn good grip on them, and/or have something like a pull string. No way you're likely to get a chance to do that in a SD/HD shooting. Military application? Maybe if it a firefight with a team you might be able to have enough time. There were also pictures of guys running ACOGs, no rear irons, and people saying the guys had their carry handle mounts on them that if the ACOG shit the bed they'd rip that off and replace with the irons, so..... On HD with RDS though, again, we can argue benefits, if the optic shits the bed, or you haven't changed your batteries for 3 years and they are dead and you grab it and no dot, or reticule.... shoot through the optic. At least that is something I would be doing.

So to shorten up what is headed towards a fucking long post, if the build allows for BUIS, I am not against it. There can be the argument that it is risk mitigation. That said, I'd also hazard that for many of us, it is just cheap piece of mind because if that optic does shit the bed when we need it I am not taking that 2 seconds to flip the fuckers up I'm shooting through the tube, dead honest, but I am comfort with the "point shooting" more index shooting, stuff than most. Also, as always mission does drive the old gear train, and I know that horse has been beaten to death, then beaten into a horse shaped bag of giblets, and we are currently bashing it's sun bleached bones with rocks, it is still true. So, if you have to have them for departmental use, go for it, if you have enough faith in your optic, or perhaps the optic set up does not allow for BUIS, then okay. iI you have to run some weird set up with irons for piece of mind to have them, go ahead, you're not likely to catch too much stupid here, don't be surprised elsewhere though.

 

[Seth Thompson]

If you have a good rifle, with a solid optic like an Aimpoint, or quality LPVO, the BUIS may be superfluous.

If you are issued DPMS rifles with EoTech's, slick front gas blocks and no BUIS, like a nearby agency I am familiar with, well....

 

[MrMurphy]

I had my PRO work at home and be dead when i got to work, i had not kept track of the calendar date. And my spare battery was mysteriously gone. No store in town had them. So i partied like it was 1994 with irons. And i did pull it on calls twice. Now two spares live in the grip like they should have.

LT mounts, correctly adjusted, open easily.

 

[Kain]

LT mounts, correctly adjusted, open easily.

Not in my experience if you are setting that bitch up per Larue's instructions. Caveat also depends on how much finger strength you have, Mongo gonna mongo afterall. Regardless, I don't see someone stripping their LPVO, ACOG, or whatever optic to get to BUIS with gun on the shoulder anything resembling fast for a gunfight.

 

[MrMurphy]

<--- Former LT guy. You might not get it off in 1 second, but a typical LT100, 104, etc would be off in maybe 5 seconds or less.

 

[TheTick]

I haven't run across the dude that has the "so there I was in the 'stan when my RCO was melted off my gun by a phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range and I had to flip up my rear sight to stay in the fight" story. I mean maybe if you had an Eotech on a scar?

So there I was outside the shoothouse in Alliance... I had recently changed my PRO battery on my birthday and checked it the night before at the hotel and re-checked while walking up to the door. No dot, flipped my sights, and ran the entry. Luckily Chappy had a spare battery and hooked me up because, like a douche, I didn't bring one to the range as the 3 month old battery seemed fine the night before and, well, it was an Aimpoint optic. Never again.

Secondly, I personally was all about a fixed-front sight post because that's the way my work gun had always been set up. Until I bought another gun for work and took it to Geiselle to let them do their magic to include a 13" rail and front flip. Never again... again. I really like the uncrowded view of a 1/3 co-witnessed optic and flip front sight.

 

[TheTick]

I had my PRO work at home and be dead when i got to work, i had not kept track of the calendar date. And my spare battery was mysteriously gone. No store in town had them. So i partied like it was 1994 with irons. And i did pull it on calls twice. Now two spares live in the grip like they should have.

LT mounts, correctly adjusted, open easily.

I've been putting good use to a Romeo5 RDS that I'm getting close to calling "duty acceptable" for me. There is something to be said for an optic that takes a AAA battery.

 

[MrMurphy]

I actually went from a t1 back to a pro. The bigger window in theory changes nothing, but on felony stops i found myself hunting for the dot on the t1 despite thousands of presentations. Something in how i wear my duty gear i guess. If the M5 is still similar size i will eventually update.

 

[Kain]

<--- Former LT guy. You might not get it off in 1 second, but a typical LT100, 104, etc would be off in maybe 5 seconds or less.

I still have Larue mounts. And if you might be able to pull 5 seconds on a single lever mount. Which is still a long fucking time if someone wants to make the claim of getting it off the gun during an actual gunfight while staying it, because that is usually the reasoning for QD mounts that I hear. The two lever mount my ACOG lives on, I'd like a timer on that one because I wouldn't see it, then again, that is also where I start to question if I even fucking need QD anyway.

On battery life, what setting are people running Pros at to kill them in 3 months? I've got an old M2 that has been on for 2 years now.

 

[user12358]

I still have Larue mounts. And if you might be able to pull 5 seconds on a single lever mount. Which is still a long fucking time if someone wants to make the claim of getting it off the gun during an actual gunfight while staying it, because that is usually the reasoning for QD mounts that I hear. The two lever mount my ACOG lives on, I'd like a timer on that one because I wouldn't see it, then again, that is also where I start to question if I even fucking need QD anyway.

I don't think that anyone is claiming that you should be messing around with a QD mount in a gunfight. As soon as something is wrong with your rifle you should attempt to safe it and transition to a pistol, that doesn't just apply to optic failures. Then before going to the next room you should unfuck your rifle. A LT, Bobro, or a Geissele mount with a 1/4" wrench tucked in your kit lets you do this in under 10 seconds and be back up and running your rifle with irons for the rest of your night.

The main reason that I run them is not mainly for CQC concerns but more of for when I am not anywhere near a replacement optic or rifle. This is why you still see people running BUIS under semi-QD mounted LPVOs. When I took the quick way down a sharp drop and my LPVO didn't make it, I was able to just pop it off and still have a zeroed, albeit much less effective rifle with some KAC 600m micros until I could toqrue down and confirm zero on my backup optic a few days later.

Unless you are running fixed BUIS with a absolute or lower 1/3 cowitness, going to BUIS is an administrative task, not an immediate action.

 

[Ridgedaddy]

My experience in the Corps and in the Army (an im nobody special) has led me to not want them if the optic is good. Aimpoints, Eotechs, even PA micro dots. I don't find them necessary. I think its all subjective to what you do. Going into a drug den at 3am in an LE environment? you probably don't need them. Going on a 3 day patrol through northern afghan? Ill most likely want them.

 

[PostCar]

I transitioned to my irons during my shooting. 1033 program A2, m68 on a dovetail mount and the standard A2 fixed front/carry handle sites.

I was getting solid hits using the aimpoint but didn't realize it because the bad guy wasn't reacting like I expected him to, i.e. standing there flinching but not dropping his gun or stopping trying to point it. I shot a few round both eyes open, closed one eye, then said "self something isn't right" and transitioned to my iron and worked an NSR drill.

Turned out I was 25 yards closer than I thought I was and was hitting several inches low, so while all my rounds hit some hand to transition the bad guys car door and my final shot (the head shot) hit him in the neck. While it wasn't a fail on the optics part, I liked having something to transition to.

 

[hile]

There is something to be said for an optic that takes a AAA battery.

That was one of the things I like about the CompM5 over the T2. Now having used both the DD fixed irons and flip-up irons of various types, I'm with you Tick, flip up all the way.

 

[Stobocor]

Do backup irons return to zero? If so, probably worth having a set zeroed and handy.

Remove while running a lpvo and install when using a rds.

 

[Medicman29]

my kid had his Aimpoint M4 literally die right before qualifying. As in, just stopped working. Battery good. Just quit. Shot a 39/40 with his irons.

 

[shoobe01]

Just to add to the stories, I did much of a class (I forget which) with irons because halfway through TD1 the EO crapped out. It actually kept blinking which was awful, so at a sufficient break I dismounted it entirely. And... then never trusted EO Tech again. I got out in front of that one.

So I am a suspicious old man, always have BUIS now as a result. MBUS makes me happy for weight, cost, and lack of snag. I'd be willing to go smaller yet, but DO want the capability still. I literally installed some MBUS on an airsoft trainer this afternoon, because everything I have is basically set up the same way.

 

[CD228]

I had a M68 crap out on me, the Buis was useful for the rest of the rotation. Then there was the time when the armorer pulled the batteries out of all the M68s and handed out the rifles without the batteries and a hearty "sucks to be you".

That said, In the words of Pat Rogers "Mission drives the gear". If you are GPF and your issued weapon is an M4 with a 68 (no pistol)and you are going outside the wire for an extend patrol and you don't have a buis and/or a spare battery for the M68, I'd think you're being negligent. If you have an ACOG with built in Irons, it's less of an issue. If you are a SWAT COP doing warrants in a housing project where the unit TTP is to go to your pistol if anything goes wrong with your rifle I can completely understand why you would not mount a BUIS on the rifle.

Some folks forget that there is no universal rule for gunfighting except living is preferable to dying, most other things are mission dependent. Also, we haven't always had/don't all have high quality combat grade optics readily available. My current unit (US ARMY) doesn't have optics and all the shooting we do is with BUIS.