ModCast 169 - Furthering discussion re; Pocket gun = SOCP dagger

[rudukai13]

Context, jump to 2:56:30 for relevant remarks;

I was interested in continuing a discussion based on comments Chuck made in the Modding Pistols for Maximum Results ModCast, specifically regarding tactics/use of a microcompact pocket gun and it's appropriate role in a fight/defensive use.

Per his comments, it sounds like his view on the proper role of a pocket gun/BUG would be strictly as an E-CQC hand-to-hand tool, not unlike a defensive knife. I was hoping we could expand on this a bit further. How would (should) training for this type of use be planned? What considerations need to be made? Is this how most people view their micro 9mm/380 pistol?

I hadn't heard this perspective before, so it piqued my interest. Looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts

 

[Matt Landfair]

I carry a backup gun G42 or G43 instead of a fixed blade knife. I recently posted about this on Instagram too.

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View this content on Instagram

 

[rudukai13]

The idea of carrying a BUG to fill the intended role of a defensive blade with respect to incapacitation time/effort is what intrigued me about the comment, it's something I hadn't considered before. Interested to hear everyone's thoughts.

What are the negative trade-offs to carrying a micro pistol to cover the intended role of a defensive blade? Size/weight come to mind initially, but is there anything else?

 

[Matt Landfair]

Size/weight/limited capacity

 

[Ryan St.Jean]

The idea of carrying a BUG to fill the intended role of a defensive blade with respect to incapacitation time/effort is what intrigued me about the comment, it's something I hadn't considered before. Interested to hear everyone's thoughts.

What are the negative trade-offs to carrying a micro pistol to cover the intended role of a defensive blade? Size/weight come to mind initially, but is there anything else?

The unique characteristics of a knife aren’t there. A BUG can be grabbed much easier than a knife. If the bore axis isn’t in line with the person you can’t shoot them. A BUG can jam in close quarters where a knife won’t.

 

[rudukai13]

The unique characteristics of a knife aren’t there. A BUG can be grabbed much easier than a knife. If the bore axis isn’t in line with the person you can’t shoot them. A BUG can jam in close quarters where a knife won’t.

All valid points, though I would say the point about bore axis could be argued against a knife as well - If you can't get the blade lined up properly it won't do much more than an off-axis pistol.

I'll have to think about the trade-offs of using a BUG in the role I'd usually assign to a defensive blade. I'd imagine ideally if you could swing it the best setup (for concealed carry at least, my primary consideration) would be a primary fighting pistol, a BUG, AND a defensive blade. I already schlepp so much junk around on my person on a daily basis as it is though, not sure I'd have the ability to add to my current carry loadout without removing something to make room for it...

 

[krax]

The unique characteristics of a knife aren’t there. A BUG can be grabbed much easier than a knife. If the bore axis isn’t in line with the person you can’t shoot them. A BUG can jam in close quarters where a knife won’t.

There's all sorts of reasons to carry a blade for defense/offense, but in a lot of states, the BUG is perfectly legal where a fixed-blade knife is not. It's unfortunate and silly, but most folks want to be in compliance with the law.

I'd love to hear both Craig Douglas and Varg's opinions on the matter.

 

[MOT]

A possible merit to the bug over the blade is as a blunt impact tool. People sometimes don’t notice when they’ve been hit with a knife. But a pound(or more) of metal in your fist can be a good thumper. An option for when the gun jams/outta ammo is to simply pistol whip the opponent.

 

[Dave1371]

I carry a backup gun G42 or G43 instead of a fixed blade knife. I recently posted about this on Instagram too.

I've come to the same conclusion Matt, and it has been reinforced since in my current position Im not wearing a vest or belt 99% of the time anymore. Even systems like the flex only afford you so many items to carry. And in the interest of economy of space I might only carry one or two hammers to allow for a screwdriver, etc, since all problems aren't nails.

To current discussion, it's also important to look at your training/experience with either in addition to their capabilities. I see a lot of guys carry a TDI or punch dagger on their belt, I always wonder how many have done anything with it beyond placing it there.

 

[Sunshine_Shooter]

The unique characteristics of a knife aren’t there. A BUG can be grabbed much easier than a knife. If the bore axis isn’t in line with the person you can’t shoot them. A BUG can jam in close quarters where a knife won’t.

This is the role where a snub nose revolver shines. Close quarters won't keep the cylinder from turning, whereas it can keep a slide from reciprocating. As a main gun, a revolver is a hard sell for me, there have to be a LOT of unusual circumstances. As a backup or in place of a blade? It starts to make a lot of sense.

 

[MOT]

This is the role where a snub nose revolver shines. Close quarters won't keep the cylinder from turning, whereas it can keep a slide from reciprocating. As a main gun, a revolver is a hard sell for me, there have to be a LOT of unusual circumstances. As a backup or in place of a blade? It starts to make a lot of sense.

Just a thing I’ve noticed with revolvers is if someone grabbing the gun around the cylinder with prevent it from going bang. This came up with training disarms/retention and draws from entangled. Purely an observation

 

[BassFlats&Beyond]

Cecil does a pretty good job explaining why I choose a fixed blade over a BUG for my non mil/LE context

 

[rudukai13]

Just a thing I’ve noticed with revolvers is if someone grabbing the gun around the cylinder with prevent it from going bang. This came up with training disarms/retention and draws from entangled. Purely an observation

If your revolver has an exposed hammer you can thumb it into SA and the internal gearing will (generally) provide enough leverage to break the grasp on the cylinder. I've tried it on numerous models

 

[Ryan St.Jean]

Just a thing I’ve noticed with revolvers is if someone grabbing the gun around the cylinder with prevent it from going bang. This came up with training disarms/retention and draws from entangled. Purely an observation

In general I'm not worried about the close retention weapons experts potential response. First those things aren't usually super reproducible in real stress testing situations. Kind of like in the Lethal Weapon movie when Jet Li hit the takedown lever on Mels Beretta 92. Second looking at the threat group ECQC attendance is probably pretty low in parking lot car jackers.

Third to me the pros of a revolver for a close quarters weapons, including a BUG, out weight the negatives by a wide margin. It seems like there is a notable group of people who lean the same way. As always YMMV.

 

[Ryan St.Jean]

A possible merit to the bug over the blade is as a blunt impact tool. People sometimes don’t notice when they’ve been hit with a knife. But a pound(or more) of metal in your fist can be a good thumper. An option for when the gun jams/outta ammo is to simply pistol whip the opponent.

That a guy isn't going to notice, or be affected by getting stabbed but will somehow be profoundly affected by getting hit with a tiny, mostly plastic gun (G42/43, etc) doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Ryan St.Jean]

There's all sorts of reasons to carry a blade for defense/offense, but in a lot of states, the BUG is perfectly legal where a fixed-blade knife is not. It's unfortunate and silly, but most folks want to be in compliance with the law.

I'd love to hear both Craig Douglas and Varg's opinions on the matter.

1- Craig literally designed and sells a knife specifically for this purpose. I haven't seen him be asked this specific question but I would make a large wager his answer would be a small fixed blade carried along the center line, such as a clench pic or similar tool.

2- Knife laws are an interesting point. That could be an issue though on the other hand many states don't consider normally sized knives weapons at all.

 

[Sunshine_Shooter]

Just a thing I’ve noticed with revolvers is if someone grabbing the gun around the cylinder with prevent it from going bang. This came up with training disarms/retention and draws from entangled. Purely an observation

Maybe, but I'm not convinced. The resistance to turning the cylinder would come from the other guy's finger tips, and against a smooth, rounded surface meant to be slipped in & out of holsters. My turning the cylinder is the full strength of my index finger/thumb pincer muscles, and against surfaces that are meant to be pulled upon (the trigger bow and grips). He'd definitely impede the gun's operation, but it seems unlikely that he'd stop it altogether. Also, as soon as his grasp is compromised in any way that cylinder is turning. It's something I hadn't considered and I'll keep in mind as a potential hurdle in the future.

 

[MOT]

Context being every tool has its merits and potential negatives. I just happened upon the revolver thing. It only occurred once, but the fact that it did happen caused me to raise my eyebrows. Whether or not someone notices being struck with anything seems (to me) to be more about how and where they get hit and what their capabilities or thresholds are. I’m not trying to say one tool is better than another.

 

[BassFlats&Beyond]

I carry a backup gun G42 or G43 instead of a fixed blade knife. I recently posted about this on Instagram too.

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

If you ever want to part with that Watson you should pm me.

 

[krax]

1- Craig literally designed and sells a knife specifically for this purpose. I haven't seen him be asked this specific question but I would make a large wager his answer would be a small fixed blade carried along the center line, such as a clench pic or similar tool.

2- Knife laws are an interesting point. That could be an issue though on the other hand many states don't consider normally sized knives weapons at all.

I'm well aware of Craig's knives (I own some.) and the reasons for carrying a knife near the center line. My question for him would be specifically about replacing the clinch pick with something else due to local laws.

I applaud the efforts of the Knife Rights guys because I live in a state that restricts fixed-blade knife carry, even for those with permits to carry guns. I carry a knife or three at work because I think they're a useful option and would like to replicate that at home for similar reasons.