Modern Patrol Rifle

[Matt Landfair]

I am in the process of putting together my interpretation of a modern patrol rifle. Not bleeding edge top of the line, but well above budget options. This would be suitable for a work or home defense weapon.

There are a couple things I am waiting on before it is complete. Sadly, the latest Surefire Scout is unknown on ETA.

The goal is to find a balance between lighter weight and capability.

I settled on 16" barrel, since it requires no special hoops to jump through. I have found great results from 11.5" and 12.5", even 14.5" barrels but unfortunately paperwork is needed (yes, unless I pin the muzzle device to the barrel on 14.5" or if I go pistol).

I have done longer distance shooting with an RDS, I have a lot of experience with shooting an RDS - BUT - modern patrol rifle concepts are going LPVO.

My current first world problem is: throw everything I have together now or wait the two extra days for the Geissele 2.04" mount to arrive...

 

[Mateo]

What about a suppressor? At least for those of us likely to respond/search with a team.

 

[RustyM92]

I don't mind waiting.

 

[Matt Landfair]

What about a suppressor? At least for those of us likely to respond/search with a team.

I have one and it is compatible with a couple of my rifles - that extra paperwork part is what is removes it from this project.

 

[jeremy_p]

@Bill Blowers will be using a Heathen Systems Assaulter Bipod in an up coming class. It is 3oz and is a barricade stop and hand stop as well. If he gives it a thumbs up then I plan on adding it to my 12.5" 5.56 pistol. The down side is that the legs aren't hinged so they're like tactical chopsticks but that keeps the weight down.

 

[Dan_F]

Matt, what LPVO did you decide to go with or is that still up for debate? Also, I love the 2.04 KAC mount and my 1.93 geissele mounts so I would wait.

 

[Pat Tarrant]

I'm currently working on a similar concept. It's also something that kind of bridges the gap between a legit patrol quality rifle (caveat, this will be a build, and mostly used as a backup and training gun, not duty use) and the WWSD rifles. A tertiary use will be if my wife, who has poor upper body strength, decides she wants to learn ARs.

I decided on the 14.5 Faxon pinned pencil barrel and BCG, a BCM M-Lok rail, a forward assist-less upper from Aero, lower receiver with ALG guts and Geissele trigger.

It will initially have an MRO red dot that's on my bench, possibly followed up by a light LPVO. Illumination will be from either an EAG Fury or a Streamlight ProTac HLX.

LPVO options, due to weight and budget restrictions, will likely be an Accupoint or VXR Patrol. The P4Xi would be another option, but increases the weight a bit.

The idea is to make a quality build that performs well, on a budget, and will be under 6lbs without accessories.

 

[Matt Landfair]

@Bill Blowers will be using a Heathen Systems Assaulter Bipod in an up coming class. It is 3oz and is a barricade stop and hand stop as well. If he gives it a thumbs up then I plan on adding it to my 12.5" 5.56 pistol. The down side is that the legs aren't hinged so they're like tactical chopsticks but that keeps the weight down.

Yes, I got him in touch with Heathen.

 

[Dpvaz56]

I am in the process of putting together my interpretation of a modern patrol rifle. Not bleeding edge top of the line, but well above budget options. This would be suitable for a work or home defense weapon.

There are a couple things I am waiting on before it is complete. Sadly, the latest Surefire Scout is unknown on ETA.

The goal is to find a balance between lighter weight and capability.

I settled on 16" barrel, since it requires no special hoops to jump through. I have found great results from 11.5" and 12.5", even 14.5" barrels but unfortunately paperwork is needed (yes, unless I pin the muzzle device to the barrel on 14.5" or if I go pistol).

I have done longer distance shooting with an RDS, I have a lot of experience with shooting an RDS - BUT - modern patrol rifle concepts are going LPVO.

My current first world problem is: throw everything I have together now or wait the two extra days for the Geissele 2.04" mount to arrive...

Perhaps throw it all together now to see how it balances out? What part(s) are you still undecided upon?

 

[Matt Landfair]

Nothing is undecided.

 

[RustyM92]

Really looking forward to seeing the end product on this!

 

[Low_Speed_Notper8or]

I did something like this, I kept it simple,

I got the 16 inch midlength BCM complete upper with their 'enhanced" pencil barrel, a mil-spec lower, and because Im poor a vortex optic.

I mean shieeet if your going to have a rifle for duty use something like that but with a aimpoint would work great, and then use the money you saved on training.

Also really I don't understand the practical appeal of going with a pinned 14.5 over a midlength 16" in 5.56. You get less muzzle velocity, more muzzle blast, and your gun is working harder(higher bolt velocity and pressure) and your gun isnt much shorter. From the standpoint of design, I am really kind of surprised we kept 5.56 when we went from 20 inch rifles to carbines, but if I keep digressing I probably should make a thread about the most recent gun nerds podcast

 

[SmElly]

I did something like this, I kept it simple,

I got the 16 inch midlength BCM complete upper with their 'enhanced" pencil barrel, a mil-spec lower, and because Im poor a vortex optic.

I mean shieeet if your going to have a rifle for duty use something like that but with a aimpoint would work great, and then use the money you saved on training.

Also really I don't understand the practical appeal of going with a pinned 14.5 over a midlength 16" in 5.56. You get less muzzle velocity, more muzzle blast, and your gun is working harder(higher bolt velocity and pressure) and your gun isnt much shorter. From the standpoint of design, I am really kind of surprised we kept 5.56 when we went from 20 inch rifles to carbines, but if I keep digressing I probably should make a thread about the most recent gun nerds podcast

I think it's an experience thing. To guys like you and me, 1.5 inches/2 oz isnt gonna be very perceptible. But to dudes that have fired hundreds of thousands of rounds, the difference may be a lot more apparent.

In regard to ballistics, M855's performance parallels your thoughts on 5.56 out of shorter barrels. However, Uncle Sam doesnt use M855 anymore, and I certainly dont use M855. Lotta great hole punchers out there that are proven out of shorter barrels.

In regards to gas system function, a 14.5 middie is going to be lower pressure/lower cyclic rate than a 16.

I dont know much, I'm just throwing a few opinions out there.

 

[Low_Speed_Notper8or]

I think it's an experience thing. To guys like you and me, 1.5 inches/2 oz isnt gonna be very perceptible. But to dudes that have fired hundreds of thousands of rounds, the difference may be a lot more apparent.

In regards to ballistic performance, M855's performance parallels your thoughts on 5.56 out of shorter barrels. However, Uncle Sam doesnt use M855 anymore, and I certainly dont use M855. Lotta great hole punchers out there that are proven out of shorter barrels.

In regards to gas system function, a 14.5 middie is going to be lower pressure/lower cyclic rate than a 16.

I dont know much, I'm just throwing a few opinions out there.

Oh I don't doubt that at all, Im sure with a soft point bullet or the hollowpoints even with a 12 inch barrel at close range 5.56 can do the job.

However, its just not an ideal solution shooting a high pressure, velocity dependent round out of a short barrel. I mean yeah, uncle sam doesnt use m855 anymore, but looking at M855a1 they increased the pressure of the round and are running their guns even harder to get something acceptable in a 14.5 barrel. Seems like Exhibit A of a less then Ideal solution.

 

[Low_Speed_Notper8or]

Oh I don't doubt that at all, Im sure with a soft point bullet or the hollowpoints even with a 12 inch barrel at close range 5.56 can do the job.

However, its just not an ideal solution shooting a high pressure, velocity dependent round out of a short barrel. I mean yeah, uncle sam doesnt use m855 anymore, but looking at M855a1 they increased the pressure of the round and are running their guns even harder to get something acceptable in a 14.5 barrel. Seems like Exhibit A of a less then Ideal solution.

Though I do think that if we are going to talk about the design philosophy of the AR-15 and 5.56 maybe we might open a new thread as we are going off topic

 

[Chaucer]

Very interested in this. Let us know how you came about choice of which LPVO. I think this might be the future of duty setups as well.

With my patrol rifle build i went with a MRO and an A2 fixed front sight/DD fixed rear. I know it is an unpopular un-tacticool choice nowadays, but personal prefence. I like knowing my irons are always zero'd and ready instantly no matter what.

Also, what are you thinking muzzle device wise? Rail?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

 

[Low_Speed_Notper8or]

Very interested in this. Let us know how you came about choice of which LPVO. I think this might be the future of duty setups as well.

With my patrol rifle build i went with a MRO and an A2 fixed front sight/DD fixed rear. I know it is an unpopular un-tacticool choice nowadays, but personal prefence. I like knowing my irons are always zero'd and ready instantly no matter what.

Also, what are you thinking muzzle device wise? Rail?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

Nothing wrong with the fixed sight. If I ever build a "survivalist/end of the world" type rifle it will have a fixed front sight and carry handle. While slower, you do not lose any accuracy with the standard aperture over a modern unmodified optic, and the ghost ring large aperture can be run pretty fast (though with less precision and worse low light performance then a modern optic).

After seeing the stuff that P&S put out and other data sources about rail flex I really don't want to have my front sight attached to something that can move and is not attached to the barrel. Especially if something happens to your gun to KO your optic there is a good chance your rail might be messed up.

And +1 on the smaller dot on the MRO, I find they can be helpful shooting at distance. I have a 1 MOA dot in the middle of my optic and I really find it useful at distance to get a precise aiming point and to attempt to estimate range

Are you going lower 1/3rd or absolute co-witness?

 

[Low_Speed_Notper8or]

Nothing wrong with the fixed sight. If I ever build a "survivalist/end of the world" type rifle it will have a fixed front sight and carry handle. While slower, you do not lose any accuracy with the standard aperture over a modern unmodified optic, and the ghost ring large aperture can be run pretty fast (though with less precision and worse low light performance then a modern optic).

After seeing the stuff that P&S put out and other data sources about rail flex I really don't want to have my front sight attached to something that can move and is not attached to the barrel. Especially if something happens to your gun to KO your optic there is a good chance your rail might be messed up.

And +1 on the smaller dot on the MRO, I find they can be helpful shooting at distance. I have a 1 MOA dot in the middle of my optic and I really find it useful at distance to get a precise aiming point and to attempt to estimate range

Are you going lower 1/3rd or absolute co-witness?

Nothing wrong with the fixed sight. If I ever build a "survivalist/end of the world" type rifle it will have a fixed front sight and carry handle. While slower, you do not lose any accuracy with the standard aperture over a modern unmodified optic, and the ghost ring large aperture can be run pretty fast (though with less precision and worse low light performance then a modern optic).

After seeing the stuff that P&S put out and other data sources about rail flex I really don't want to have my front sight attached to something that can move and is not attached to the barrel. Especially if something happens to your gun to KO your optic there is a good chance your rail might be messed up.

And +1 on the smaller dot on the MRO, I find they can be helpful shooting at distance. I have a similar dot in the middle of my optic and I really find it useful at distance to get a precise aiming point and to attempt to estimate range

Are you going lower 1/3rd or absolute co-witness?

 

[Chaucer]

Very interested in this. Let us know how you came about choice of which LPVO. I think this might be the future of duty setups as well.

With my patrol rifle build i went with a MRO and an A2 fixed front sight/DD fixed rear. I know it is an unpopular un-tacticool choice nowadays, but personal prefence. I like knowing my irons are always zero'd and ready instantly no matter what.

Also, what are you thinking muzzle device wise? Rail?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

Nothing wrong with the fixed sight. If I ever build a "survivalist/end of the world" type rifle it will have a fixed front sight and carry handle. While slower, you do not lose any accuracy with the standard aperture over a modern unmodified optic, and the ghost ring large aperture can be run pretty fast (though with less precision and worse low light performance then a modern optic).

After seeing the stuff that P&S put out and other data sources about rail flex I really don't want to have my front sight attached to something that can move and is not attached to the barrel. Especially if something happens to your gun to KO your optic there is a good chance your rail might be messed up.

And +1 on the smaller dot on the MRO, I find they can be helpful shooting at distance. I have a 1 MOA dot in the middle of my optic and I really find it useful at distance to get a precise aiming point and to attempt to estimate range

Are you going lower 1/3rd or absolute co-witness?

We are exactly the same thought process. My current duty rifle build is my SHTF/major crisis build in my arsenal, sort of the "one gun" idea. I was equally disheartened by that rail flex stuff. I like your point about anything creating a dead optic would most likely have pretty much wrecked rail.

I did lower 1/3, Daniel Defense A1.5 fixed rear. One big thing I noticed doing precise shooting with true cowitness is that I can miss that visual shot feedback (kicked up dirt) at distance which Ive come to value. Im no sniper and Ive never shot on a two way range, but I still think it a good tool that I lose with all of the bottom of my optic obscured.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

 

[Low_Speed_Notper8or]

We are exactly the same thought process. My current duty rifle build is my SHTF/major crisis build in my arsenal, sort of the "one gun" idea. I was equally disheartened by that rail flex stuff. I like your point about anything creating a dead optic would most likely have pretty much wrecked rail.

I did lower 1/3, Daniel Defense A1.5 fixed rear. One big thing I noticed doing precise shooting with true cowitness is that I can miss that visual shot feedback (kicked up dirt) at distance which Ive come to value. Im no sniper and Ive never shot on a two way range, but I still think it a good tool that I lose with all of the bottom of my optic obscured.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

The dirt splash makes good sense, however you have to consider height over bore.

Something I learned the hard way in a carbine class this weekend is with lower 1/3rd you have a large height over bore of like 3 inches, and also a 50/200 zero with a max 2 inch ordinate becomes with 55 grain ball a 50/250ish zero where your like 3ish inches high at 150. At about 150 I was aiming at the head of a mini IPSC and consistently putting shots right over the top. Also we ran a drill doing snap shooting on playing cards at about 10 yards and even holding at the top of the card if not trying to cheat up a bit I was still rather low barely clipping the bottom


Something to keep in mind for those of use who are not snake eating operators