Crye Precision Six12
- Thread starter Matt Landfair
- Start date
I really like the idea of the integrally suppressed model they have. If the OAL is comparable to other bullpups, it could make an excellent house gun. Of course, this shotgun has a lot of other missions in mind, but they are out of my wheelhouse.
Bronson
Fury
I know the lead designer didn't have any MIL / LE Experience. I'm unsure as to who else contributed to this weapon system's development.
I'm not a fan of mounting weapon systems to the M4 FOW. It adds weight, induces fatigue, and typically results in those duty positions reverting back to Rifleman mindset and employment until the light bulb comes on or they are ordered to employ the other weapon system.
A big issue with ballistic breaching (and shotguns in general) is how / where to store ammunition.
Issues I foresee with the Six12 in that category:
1) Reload time while on target.
A) This is an issue as the cylinder only holds 6 shells. Door knob locks typically take 1-2 rounds, with door hinge attacks being 3
rounds. When you start adding failure drills and re-attacking locks, your ballistic breacher is going to spend a fair amount of time
back in the stack or outside the door reloading - most likely while you need him to breach another door.
I really want to know reload times on target for cylinder reloading. Is the breacher going to eject all shells and replace them? Is
he going to count rounds expended and place his hand over them, ejecting only the spent shells? Or is he going to hand eject and
reload? What is the Suggested Best Practice here?
2) Storing spare cylinders preloaded and performing a tactical reload.
A) By doing this reloads will be faster, but at the expense of not being able to perform ammunition consolidation. The ballistic
breacher likely won't be able to top off partial magazines as they will most likely be thrown in a dump pouch or cargo pocket.
This is a problem because the cylinders are large and multiple would need to be carried, with not a lot of real estate available on
PC's. What's the recommended Basic Load for the Six12?
Other issues include the stock not being as user friendly as I would like, the grip looks awkward, and the sight height over bore being higher than I would like. On the whole, it also seems quite long for what it does.
When we were doing initial drawings for dedicated ballistic breaching platforms for fun, we sketched up something similar but with an 8-shot cylinder. In the end we decided it simply wasn't the preferred method for reloading and presented issues for combat load and placement on kit.
Being that this is going to be a secondary weapon system, it means a primary weapon system would also need to be carried. This means weight and length are valid concerns.
I'm not a fan of mounting weapon systems to the M4 FOW. It adds weight, induces fatigue, and typically results in those duty positions reverting back to Rifleman mindset and employment until the light bulb comes on or they are ordered to employ the other weapon system.
A big issue with ballistic breaching (and shotguns in general) is how / where to store ammunition.
Issues I foresee with the Six12 in that category:
1) Reload time while on target.
A) This is an issue as the cylinder only holds 6 shells. Door knob locks typically take 1-2 rounds, with door hinge attacks being 3
rounds. When you start adding failure drills and re-attacking locks, your ballistic breacher is going to spend a fair amount of time
back in the stack or outside the door reloading - most likely while you need him to breach another door.
I really want to know reload times on target for cylinder reloading. Is the breacher going to eject all shells and replace them? Is
he going to count rounds expended and place his hand over them, ejecting only the spent shells? Or is he going to hand eject and
reload? What is the Suggested Best Practice here?
2) Storing spare cylinders preloaded and performing a tactical reload.
A) By doing this reloads will be faster, but at the expense of not being able to perform ammunition consolidation. The ballistic
breacher likely won't be able to top off partial magazines as they will most likely be thrown in a dump pouch or cargo pocket.
This is a problem because the cylinders are large and multiple would need to be carried, with not a lot of real estate available on
PC's. What's the recommended Basic Load for the Six12?
Other issues include the stock not being as user friendly as I would like, the grip looks awkward, and the sight height over bore being higher than I would like. On the whole, it also seems quite long for what it does.
When we were doing initial drawings for dedicated ballistic breaching platforms for fun, we sketched up something similar but with an 8-shot cylinder. In the end we decided it simply wasn't the preferred method for reloading and presented issues for combat load and placement on kit.
Being that this is going to be a secondary weapon system, it means a primary weapon system would also need to be carried. This means weight and length are valid concerns.
^Agreed, and home boys AR trigger finger is getting damn close when he fires the shotgun.
501scout
Newbie
We tested out the M26 in 04. Haven't seen one since. Under mounted shotguns just added bulk not only to your Primary but also to your kit. The magazines were huge. While the Crye seems like a lot better option, I think Bronson hit my reservations up with his comment. I would like to hear some end user feedback on this though.
I still preferred (limited experience- as in the 90's and early 2000) a stand alone 870 (pistol grip-folder maybe, but no fixed buttstock) with a quick feed device. Modularity has a place, but I prefer the fact that it can be passed off to someone (if needed) if it is a stand alone unit and just feed it underneath- possibly using a quality speed feed type tube. But, my experiences are a lil dated... interested if my line of thinking is still relevant.
Plus, I'm curious as to what the end user thinks of it on his weapon when he isn't breaching... as in any bad balance of getting the weapon in a more efficient firing position or snag hazards as a couple of examples.
Plus, I'm curious as to what the end user thinks of it on his weapon when he isn't breaching... as in any bad balance of getting the weapon in a more efficient firing position or snag hazards as a couple of examples.
Bronson
Fury
We had Mossberg M500's. BII and COEI included full stock and pistol grip options.
For Ballistic Breachers, the M500 Breacher configuration was pistol grip only. (The full stock versions were dedicated Less Lethal systems in Iraq, and we armed our interpreter in AFG with it with buckshot.)
I ended up being part of a committee on the Ballistic Breacher Duty position we developed at the Company level (intended for Army-wide DOTMPLF for the Ballistic Breacher in the GPF and patterned after our SDM version) and I personally purchased Eagle Industries Shotgun Holsters / Sheaths. Other carry options include single point slings, carabiners and 550 cord, kydex holsters, and nylon pouches.
My preferred option was cross draw configuration off the strap of my sniper harness (with additional retention of a fastek clip on my PC to help anchoring in place). I snapped a MALICE Clip in half using that as the initial mounting platform and have never used them again.
I was never a fan of back-mounted shotguns for several reasons: Difficulty in accessing, difficulty obtaining a grip and keeping the finger out of the trigger guard, difficulty reholstering (typically took another person to accomplish) and that it flagged vital parts of the anatomy during regular carry as well as reholstering. That weapon is making a large hole.
I think of all current shotgun platforms, the KSG-12 offers the best solution for ballistic breaching and secondary weapon system purposes but it's still heavy and awkward to carry in addition to an M4.
For Ballistic Breachers, the M500 Breacher configuration was pistol grip only. (The full stock versions were dedicated Less Lethal systems in Iraq, and we armed our interpreter in AFG with it with buckshot.)
I ended up being part of a committee on the Ballistic Breacher Duty position we developed at the Company level (intended for Army-wide DOTMPLF for the Ballistic Breacher in the GPF and patterned after our SDM version) and I personally purchased Eagle Industries Shotgun Holsters / Sheaths. Other carry options include single point slings, carabiners and 550 cord, kydex holsters, and nylon pouches.
My preferred option was cross draw configuration off the strap of my sniper harness (with additional retention of a fastek clip on my PC to help anchoring in place). I snapped a MALICE Clip in half using that as the initial mounting platform and have never used them again.
I was never a fan of back-mounted shotguns for several reasons: Difficulty in accessing, difficulty obtaining a grip and keeping the finger out of the trigger guard, difficulty reholstering (typically took another person to accomplish) and that it flagged vital parts of the anatomy during regular carry as well as reholstering. That weapon is making a large hole.
I think of all current shotgun platforms, the KSG-12 offers the best solution for ballistic breaching and secondary weapon system purposes but it's still heavy and awkward to carry in addition to an M4.
Last edited:
Bronson
Fury
Crye is accepting LE & MIL User Evaluations.
Website is as follows: http://six12.com
Information is below:
UPDATE
Evaluation units are now in production and we are selecting certain military and law enforcement (UNITS) to participate in the assessment. If you would like to be considered for participation, fill out this form, or send an email with your information and the subject "EVALUATION" toeval@six12.com.
PLEASE NOTE: Not all participants will be selected. You will only be contacted if selected.
Website is as follows: http://six12.com
Information is below:
UPDATE
Evaluation units are now in production and we are selecting certain military and law enforcement (UNITS) to participate in the assessment. If you would like to be considered for participation, fill out this form, or send an email with your information and the subject "EVALUATION" toeval@six12.com.
PLEASE NOTE: Not all participants will be selected. You will only be contacted if selected.
Bronson
Fury
It's also bad juju to put out a video showcasing bad tactics.
Breaching a door, planting & standing in the middle of the funnel, and taking forever to engage a target is textbook "what not to do as a Breacher".
Between that and the poor trigger discipline showcased, it makes Crye look like Sons Of Guns.
Breaching a door, planting & standing in the middle of the funnel, and taking forever to engage a target is textbook "what not to do as a Breacher".
Between that and the poor trigger discipline showcased, it makes Crye look like Sons Of Guns.
Threw my name in the hat, thanks for the link Bronson. Modified Saiga 12 with ten round mags is my breaching gun, but I don't carry my rifle if I'm the breacher.
As a side, Sellior & Bellot (SP?) make a new plastic breaching that sucks balls. They are inexpensive so may be attractive, but I would not recommend using them on even light, hollow core doors. They were new to me anyway, anyone else mess with these?
As a side, Sellior & Bellot (SP?) make a new plastic breaching that sucks balls. They are inexpensive so may be attractive, but I would not recommend using them on even light, hollow core doors. They were new to me anyway, anyone else mess with these?
Bronson
Fury
It still blows my mind that departments allow a Saiga 12 for ballistic breaching. I don't know how you got that authorized - but well done....
How many spare magazines for the Saiga do you carry? What's the mean / max number of doors you hit on target / rounds expended? Tactical Reloads after each door - where are partial magazines being stored?
I have limited experience with the S&B breaching shells but was severely underwhelmed by them. The only thing they really worked on was (smaller) chain & padlock combos.
How many spare magazines for the Saiga do you carry? What's the mean / max number of doors you hit on target / rounds expended? Tactical Reloads after each door - where are partial magazines being stored?
I have limited experience with the S&B breaching shells but was severely underwhelmed by them. The only thing they really worked on was (smaller) chain & padlock combos.
Number of mags is dependent on target. I always carry one in the gun and one in the dump pouch that are loaded. I have four total, so on multi-building compounds I + up. I may also have rounds stowed in a card or shell holder on the belt.
# of doors is dependent on # we find locked. So in some cases only one, the scenario I posted in OPSEC required four doors. I dont think I have evern fired more than 20 rounds on a single hit, and I double everything, meaning two per lock or hinge.
My procedureis to shoot the door, step out and mechanical breachers finish it. During that time, I change mags, if I'm only carrying one I top off the partial with rounds on person and it goes back int he dump pouch. If I'm carrying more that 1 spare, I usually try to top off the partial but I am less worried about it. If I didn't fill it up for whatever reason, it also goes in the dump pouch.
A chunk of this is all internal TTP's on what I specifically do as a team leader carrying a breaching gun. The above may not be for every mission, but it works well for how we conduct business.
# of doors is dependent on # we find locked. So in some cases only one, the scenario I posted in OPSEC required four doors. I dont think I have evern fired more than 20 rounds on a single hit, and I double everything, meaning two per lock or hinge.
My procedureis to shoot the door, step out and mechanical breachers finish it. During that time, I change mags, if I'm only carrying one I top off the partial with rounds on person and it goes back int he dump pouch. If I'm carrying more that 1 spare, I usually try to top off the partial but I am less worried about it. If I didn't fill it up for whatever reason, it also goes in the dump pouch.
A chunk of this is all internal TTP's on what I specifically do as a team leader carrying a breaching gun. The above may not be for every mission, but it works well for how we conduct business.
Outside of the breached role and mounting under a rifle, are there any preliminary opinions on the Six12 as a stand alone general purpose shotgun?
Bronson
Fury
I don't see it as doing anything better in the current market honestly.
3-Gun - Possibly. Combat reload and carry spare cylinders on your person.
Home Defense - Possibly. 6 shots isn't what I would want to have on me personally without a method for quick reloading. At least 870/500's offer stock length for attaching shotshell cards and have a tube. Reloading the Six12 under stress looks a lot more difficult and not something I would want to do in a HD scenario.
Cylinder isn't conducive to LE vehicle carry - now you're down to five rounds and a more complex loading procedure.
I'm curious as to how the MLOK slot accessories hold up to 12 Gauge Recoil Impulse.
This design just doesn't live up as a solution to the problems it sought to resolve. The Capabilities Gap is still there. I guess that's what happens when you dream up things and don't incorporate primary end users in the design and execution.
Crye's likely going to do a Change Of Mission and try to market it to different interests, namely civilian and sporting.
3-Gun - Possibly. Combat reload and carry spare cylinders on your person.
Home Defense - Possibly. 6 shots isn't what I would want to have on me personally without a method for quick reloading. At least 870/500's offer stock length for attaching shotshell cards and have a tube. Reloading the Six12 under stress looks a lot more difficult and not something I would want to do in a HD scenario.
Cylinder isn't conducive to LE vehicle carry - now you're down to five rounds and a more complex loading procedure.
I'm curious as to how the MLOK slot accessories hold up to 12 Gauge Recoil Impulse.
This design just doesn't live up as a solution to the problems it sought to resolve. The Capabilities Gap is still there. I guess that's what happens when you dream up things and don't incorporate primary end users in the design and execution.
Crye's likely going to do a Change Of Mission and try to market it to different interests, namely civilian and sporting.
Not even sure it's viable for 3 gun, pretty sure I can fill a tube with 8 rounds faster than you can change a cylinder, and I ain't that fast.
borebrush
Not Pumpkin
This shotgun loses one of the strongest attributes that shotguns are known for, select shell reloads.
Also unless it features a drastically improved revolver mechanism, it probably has trigger pull weight measured in time duration instead of weight.
Sure the cylinder works around the weak point of hull design, the hull walls deform when compressed in a box mag (saiga weak point).
An inline magazine tube has yet to be beaten...
Also unless it features a drastically improved revolver mechanism, it probably has trigger pull weight measured in time duration instead of weight.
Sure the cylinder works around the weak point of hull design, the hull walls deform when compressed in a box mag (saiga weak point).
An inline magazine tube has yet to be beaten...
Saiga mags stay empty, I load them immediately after briefing, unload leftovers immediately after the job.
Watching the movie it looks like the cylinder clicks into place and there is a release lever just forward of the cylinder at the bottom.